scoring question

Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Perry" == Perry Sailor <perry.sailor.DeleteThis@colorado.edu> writes:
>
> Perry> This was scored a K and a wild pitch, which doesn't really
> Perry> seem right to me. True, if the pitch hadn't been in the
> Perry> dirt, Helton couldn't have tried for first, but it seems to
> Perry> me that Santiago (who could have tagged Helton first and
> Perry> appealed later) and Snow were both far more at fault than
> Perry> the pitcher. After all, Santiago was able to make a clean
> Perry> catch of this supposed "wild pitch." All he had to do was
> Perry> make a simple tag, and all Snow had to do was stay home and
> Perry> cover his base. Is there any leeway for the scorer here,
> Perry> to charge an error on either Santiago or Snow?
>
> The scorer *could* have scored a passed ball on Santiago, but since the
> pitch was in the dirt, the general rule is that it's a WP.
>
> I'm fairly sure that a PB or WP *has* to be scored here, to account for
> the K, but runner advancing. Since you can't really count 2 errors on this
> play (runner only advanced one base), an E on Snow is out here (despite
> his lack of mental attention here; remember, errors are mainly intended to
> cover *physical* misplays, not mental mistakes).

Well, you can't rule an error on Snow because he didn't misplay the
ball. It's ridiculous, yes, but that's the rule.

--
Thanks for your time,

Eric Opperman
"I've got a job to do, and that's part of it. I've got a special feeling
for Sidney, and I will in 20 years--unless he blows up my house or
something." -- Baltimore Orioles manager Mike Hargrove on telling Sidney
Ponson he'd been traded to the Giants.
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

Kristian M Zoerhoff <zoerhoff DeleteThis @btv.ibm.com> wrote:

>>>>>> "Perry" == Perry Sailor <perry.sailor DeleteThis @colorado.edu> writes:
>
> Perry> This was scored a K and a wild pitch, which doesn't really
> Perry> seem right to me. True, if the pitch hadn't been in the
> Perry> dirt, Helton couldn't have tried for first, but it seems to
> Perry> me that Santiago (who could have tagged Helton first and
> Perry> appealed later) and Snow were both far more at fault than
> Perry> the pitcher. After all, Santiago was able to make a clean
> Perry> catch of this supposed "wild pitch." All he had to do was
> Perry> make a simple tag, and all Snow had to do was stay home and
> Perry> cover his base. Is there any leeway for the scorer here,
> Perry> to charge an error on either Santiago or Snow?
>
>The scorer *could* have scored a passed ball on Santiago, but since the
>pitch was in the dirt, the general rule is that it's a WP.

I believe it's explicit in the rules that a ball in the dirst cannot
be a PB.

--
James Farrar | londonstatto DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk
"Regardless of what Bud, MLB, the East Coast, or anyone else thinks,
we have the best park, team, organization, and fans in the bigs.
So they can shove it."
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

James Farrar wrote:
>
> Kristian M Zoerhoff <zoerhoff.RemoveThis@btv.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> "Perry" == Perry Sailor <perry.sailor.RemoveThis@colorado.edu> writes:
> >
> > Perry> This was scored a K and a wild pitch, which doesn't really
> > Perry> seem right to me. True, if the pitch hadn't been in the
> > Perry> dirt, Helton couldn't have tried for first, but it seems to
> > Perry> me that Santiago (who could have tagged Helton first and
> > Perry> appealed later) and Snow were both far more at fault than
> > Perry> the pitcher. After all, Santiago was able to make a clean
> > Perry> catch of this supposed "wild pitch." All he had to do was
> > Perry> make a simple tag, and all Snow had to do was stay home and
> > Perry> cover his base. Is there any leeway for the scorer here,
> > Perry> to charge an error on either Santiago or Snow?
> >
> >The scorer *could* have scored a passed ball on Santiago, but since the
> >pitch was in the dirt, the general rule is that it's a WP.
>
> I believe it's explicit in the rules that a ball in the dirst cannot
> be a PB.

Completely a judgement call. If the catcher should have made the play,
it's a PB. If not, WP.

--
Thanks for your time,

Eric Opperman
"I've got a job to do, and that's part of it. I've got a special feeling
for Sidney, and I will in 20 years--unless he blows up my house or
something." -- Baltimore Orioles manager Mike Hargrove on telling Sidney
Ponson he'd been traded to the Giants.
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

>>>>> "Kristian" == Kristian M Zoerhoff <zoerhoff DeleteThis @btv.ibm.com> writes:
Kristian> The scorer *could* have scored a passed ball on
Kristian> Santiago, but since the pitch was in the dirt, the
Kristian> general rule is that it's a WP.

Rule 10.15(a)(1) confirms this:

*10.15*
(a) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball is so
high, or so wide, or so low that the catcher does not stop and control
the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to
advance. (1) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball
touches the ground before reaching home plate and is not handled by the
catcher, permitting a runner or runners to advance.

Kristian> I'm fairly sure that a PB or WP *has* to be scored here,
Kristian> to account for the K, but runner advancing. Since you
Kristian> can't really count 2 errors on this play (runner only
Kristian> advanced one base), an E on Snow is out here (despite
Kristian> his lack of mental attention here; remember, errors are
Kristian> mainly intended to cover *physical* misplays, not mental
Kristian> mistakes).

And rule 10.14(f)(1) covers this:

*10.14*
No error shall be charged in the following cases:
(f) Because the pitcher and catcher handle
the ball much more than other fielders, certain misplays on pitched
balls are defined in Rule 10.15 as wild pitches and passed balls. No
error shall be charged when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored. (1)
No error shall be charged when the batter is awarded first base on four
called balls or because he was touched by a pitched ball, or when he
reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball. (i)
When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach
first base, score a strikeout and a wild pitch. (ii) When the third
strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base,
score a strikeout and a passed ball.

--
Kristian M Zoerhoff
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

"Kristian M Zoerhoff" <zoerhoff.RemoveThis@btv.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:u8wn0dk4qx8.fsf@kmz.ibmus2.ibm.com...
> >>>>> "Kristian" == Kristian M Zoerhoff <zoerhoff.RemoveThis@btv.ibm.com> writes:
> Kristian> The scorer *could* have scored a passed ball on
> Kristian> Santiago, but since the pitch was in the dirt, the
> Kristian> general rule is that it's a WP.
>
> Rule 10.15(a)(1) confirms this:
>
> *10.15*
> (a) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball is so
> high, or so wide, or so low that the catcher does not stop and control
> the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to
> advance. (1) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball
> touches the ground before reaching home plate and is not handled by the
> catcher, permitting a runner or runners to advance.

Ah, but in this case it WAS handled cleanly by the catcher. He had the ball
in his hand with the batter-runner about 3 feet away from him, he just chose
to ignore him. And the rule on errors says "An error shall be charged
against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time
to put out the batter runner and fails to tag first base or the batter
runner." I'm not sure a pitch is considered a "thrown ball" under this
rule, but it looks like you could conceivably charge Santiago with an error.
I don't see how one could be charged on Snow for abandoning his position,
though. I don't know, this situation kind of falls between the cracks in
the rules, it seems to me.

Perry
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Kristian" == Kristian M Zoerhoff <zoerhoff.TakeThisOut@btv.ibm.com> writes:
> Kristian> The scorer *could* have scored a passed ball on
> Kristian> Santiago, but since the pitch was in the dirt, the
> Kristian> general rule is that it's a WP.
>
> Rule 10.15(a)(1) confirms this:
>
> *10.15*
> (a) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball is so
> high, or so wide, or so low that the catcher does not stop and control
> the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to
> advance. (1) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball
> touches the ground before reaching home plate and is not handled by the
> catcher, permitting a runner or runners to advance.

Not quite. That says it's a WP if it hits the dirt in front of the
plate, not if it's in the dirt, period.

--
Thanks for your time,

Eric Opperman
"I've got a job to do, and that's part of it. I've got a special feeling
for Sidney, and I will in 20 years--unless he blows up my house or
something." -- Baltimore Orioles manager Mike Hargrove on telling Sidney
Ponson he'd been traded to the Giants.
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

"Perry Sailor" <perry.sailor.RemoveThis@colorado.edu> wrote in message news:<bj7i2v$dfp$1@peabody.colorado.edu>...

> Ah, but in this case it WAS handled cleanly by the catcher.

No it wasn't, because he didn't catch the pitch. Why didn't he catch
the pitch? Because it was wild.

And the rule on errors says "An error shall be charged
> against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time
> to put out the batter runner and fails to tag first base or the batter
> runner."

A thrown ball an a pitched ball are not the same thing. You have to
remember that this situation would not have happened if the pitcher
had not dumped the pitch in the dirt.
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

Eric Opperman <ericopp.TakeThisOut@midsouth.rr.com> wrote:

>James Farrar wrote:
>>
>> I believe it's explicit in the rules that a ball in the dirst cannot
>> be a PB.
>
>Completely a judgement call. If the catcher should have made the play,
>it's a PB. If not, WP.

WILD PITCHES_PASSED BALLS
10.15
(a) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball is so
high, or so wide, or so low that the catcher does not stop and control
the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to
advance. (1) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered
ball touches the ground before reaching home plate and is not handled
by the catcher, permitting a runner or runners to advance.

--
James Farrar | londonstatto.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk
"Regardless of what Bud, MLB, the East Coast, or anyone else thinks,
we have the best park, team, organization, and fans in the bigs.
So they can shove it."
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

James Farrar wrote:
>
> Eric Opperman <ericopp DeleteThis @midsouth.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >James Farrar wrote:
> >>
> >> I believe it's explicit in the rules that a ball in the dirst cannot
> >> be a PB.
> >
> >Completely a judgement call. If the catcher should have made the play,
> >it's a PB. If not, WP.
>
> WILD PITCHES_PASSED BALLS
> 10.15
> (a) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball is so
> high, or so wide, or so low that the catcher does not stop and control
> the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to
> advance. (1) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered
> ball touches the ground before reaching home plate and is not handled
> by the catcher, permitting a runner or runners to advance.

A very small percentage of pitches in the dirt are automatically a wild
pitch under that rule.

--
Thanks for your time,

Eric Opperman
"I've got a job to do, and that's part of it. I've got a special feeling
for Sidney, and I will in 20 years--unless he blows up my house or
something." -- Baltimore Orioles manager Mike Hargrove on telling Sidney
Ponson he'd been traded to the Giants.
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question 

"Ryan" <ryan_robbins.RemoveThis@bangorinfo.com> wrote in message
news:30347bd6.0309041912.2ab574f0@posting.google.com...
> "Perry Sailor" <perry.sailor.RemoveThis@colorado.edu> wrote in message
news:<bj7i2v$dfp$1@peabody.colorado.edu>...
>
> > Ah, but in this case it WAS handled cleanly by the catcher.
>
> No it wasn't, because he didn't catch the pitch. Why didn't he catch
> the pitch? Because it was wild.
>
> And the rule on errors says "An error shall be charged
> > against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in
time
> > to put out the batter runner and fails to tag first base or the batter
> > runner."
>
> A thrown ball an a pitched ball are not the same thing. You have to
> remember that this situation would not have happened if the pitcher
> had not dumped the pitch in the dirt.

So long as a play can be made with routine effort and skill, no Error,
Passed Ball, or Wild Pitch has happened yet. The pitch was handled well
enough to preserve the presumption of an out, so a Passed Ball is a dubious
call.
 >> Stay informed about: scoring question