If you restarted the Hall of Fame...

On Jul 3, 4:45 pm, Lance Freezeland
<freezelandlaw.nos....DeleteThis@consolidated.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT), Ron Johnson
> <john....DeleteThis@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> gave us:
>
> >On Jul 3, 11:34 am, "Colin William" <colintwill....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Are there any comparable HoF 2B from that time?
> >Not a great comp, but you've got Bobby Doerr -- a veterans
> >committee pick. (I think you have to credit Ted Williams for
> >this selection)
> >You've also got Joe Gordon. Better than Doerr. Not in.
>
> Ron, would you put Lou Whitaker in this discussion too?

Yeah. I was kicking myself because it undercut the favoritism
to blacks argument. Very strange vote too. I mean he
obviously wasn't a lock, but there are maybe a half-dozen
guys clearly better than Whitaker in history.
>
> >Red Schoendienst. But nobody thinks he was qualified on
> >his playing career alone.
>
> I've argued for years that Schoendienst got in on the basis of his
> entire 60 year contribution to baseball -- as a player, manager and
> coach (he's got something like 7 or 8 World Series rings), but that
> argument has always been dismissed on Usenet. I think that we'll see
> the same thing happen to Joe Torre some day.

And something similar clearly happened with Frank Chance.
His managerial career is brilliant but too short to make
the hall.

And his playing career isn't up to the standards of HOF
first-baseman.

Torre though doesn't need his fine playing career (he's
just short of making the hall as a player). No precedent
for a manager with his record not making it.

In that sense he's kind of like Miller Huggins. Real
good playing career. Given the horses and won with them.
(Sounds easy but it's not)
 >> Stay informed about: If you restarted the Hall of Fame... 

"Ron Johnson" <johnson DeleteThis @ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:1ffdce5d-646d-4f20-8dd5-84b6d0dfbe70@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 3, 4:45 pm, Lance Freezeland
> <freezelandlaw.nos... DeleteThis @consolidated.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT), Ron Johnson
>> <john... DeleteThis @ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> gave us:
>>
>> >On Jul 3, 11:34 am, "Colin William" <colintwill... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Are there any comparable HoF 2B from that time?
>> >Not a great comp, but you've got Bobby Doerr -- a veterans
>> >committee pick. (I think you have to credit Ted Williams for
>> >this selection)
>> >You've also got Joe Gordon. Better than Doerr. Not in.
>>
>> Ron, would you put Lou Whitaker in this discussion too?
>
> Yeah. I was kicking myself because it undercut the favoritism
> to blacks argument. Very strange vote too. I mean he
> obviously wasn't a lock, but there are maybe a half-dozen
> guys clearly better than Whitaker in history.
>>
>> >Red Schoendienst. But nobody thinks he was qualified on
>> >his playing career alone.
>>
>> I've argued for years that Schoendienst got in on the basis of his
>> entire 60 year contribution to baseball -- as a player, manager and
>> coach (he's got something like 7 or 8 World Series rings), but that
>> argument has always been dismissed on Usenet. I think that we'll see
>> the same thing happen to Joe Torre some day.
>
> And something similar clearly happened with Frank Chance.
> His managerial career is brilliant but too short to make
> the hall.

"Tinker to Evers to Chance" is what happened.

> And his playing career isn't up to the standards of HOF
> first-baseman.
>
> Torre though doesn't need his fine playing career (he's
> just short of making the hall as a player). No precedent
> for a manager with his record not making it.
>
> In that sense he's kind of like Miller Huggins. Real
> good playing career. Given the horses and won with them.
> (Sounds easy but it's not)
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: If you restarted the Hall of Fame... 

On Jul 4, 12:32 am, "TimV" <tvanwagoner_yourknicke....DeleteThis@ou.edu> wrote:
> "Ron Johnson" <john....DeleteThis@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> wrote in message

>
> > And something similar clearly happened with Frank Chance.
> > His managerial career is brilliant but too short to make
> > the hall.
>
> "Tinker to Evers to Chance" is what happened.

It's an old story, and it might well explain Tinker.

Evers and Chance though are a different story. It's
clear that the voters never saw the three as a linked
group.

Chance drew significant support on the 1937 ballot (in other
words the vote for 6th place on). Finished 12th. Evers
finished 13th. Tinker finished behind Three Finger Brown
and Johnny Kling -- miles back.

By 1945 a grand total of 14 players had been voted in
(amd another 14 -- many of whom got less support
than Chance -- had been inducted by various committees)
and Chance topped the list (while failing to get in)

Evers ran 4th, 45 votes behind Chance. Tinker was 18th.

They cleared out another pile of guys so Evers moved up
to second. Still 40 votes behind Chance. Tinker was
still barely on radar.

There are a number of strange picks by 1946 Veterans Committee.
Tinker's one of them.

The writers of the day saw Chance and Evers as more HOF worthy
than Lefty Grove, Mickey Cochrane and Carl Hubbel.(All of
whom weere elected in 1947 -- after Chance and Evers
were no longer on the ballot.

Part of that is the state that record keeping was in.
Basically Evers' HOF case was "best position player
on the most dominant team of all time -- and then
won an MVP on a surprise pennant winner" (amd every
word is true)

There appears to be a little sympathy vote for Chance.
He missed a lot of time from some terrible beanings
and (as with Puckett) the voters appear to have mentally
credited him with time missed.

As wll, back then managers did very well in the voting
and Chance was a very highly regarded manager. (His
nickname was the Peerless Leader and that very much
captures the way he was regarded).

He also got credit for *building* the great team though
it was really put together by Frank Selee. (Back then
the manager also handled what it now the GM's duties)
 >> Stay informed about: If you restarted the Hall of Fame...