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Colin William

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Since: Oct 03, 2003
Posts: 2088



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:58 pm
Post subject: If you restarted the Hall of Fame...
Archived from groups: alt>sports>baseball>atlanta-braves (more info?)

....who would be the first five players you'd induct in the first class? Joe
Posnanski poses the question in his latest blog, and I think it's a good
one:

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/28/first-class/

I must admit to being sold on his argument re: Jackie Robinson. So I'd
probably go with:
Jackie Robinson - for the reasons in the article
Babe Ruth - probably the game's biggest star, probably its best hitter
Walter Johnson - adjusting for era Pedro has been better, but the Big Train
has more than twice as many innings under his belt.
Honus Wagner - I wanted someone in the middle infield, and it was between
Wagner or Hornsby. Wagner played the tougher position and had a longer
productive career, so I gave him the nod.
Josh Gibson - seems to be the consensus best hitter in the Negro Leagues,
and at catcher too. Some might argue we don't know because we don't have the
stats; I decide not to penalize him for that, and give him the benefit of
the doubt.

I feel wrong leaving out guys like Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams and Musial,
but then I'd have a debut class entirely composed of outfielders.

Colin

---------------------
"Science is based on a fundamental insight - that the degree to which an
idea seems true has nothing to do with whether it is true"

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Joe Schmoe

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Since: Nov 14, 2005
Posts: 310



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:20 pm
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"Colin William" <colintwilliam.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6co8j1F3h9immU1@mid.individual.net...
> ...who would be the first five players you'd induct in the first class?
> Joe
> Posnanski poses the question in his latest blog, and I think it's a good
> one:
>
> http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/28/first-class/
>
> I must admit to being sold on his argument re: Jackie Robinson. So I'd
> probably go with:
> Jackie Robinson - for the reasons in the article
> Babe Ruth - probably the game's biggest star, probably its best hitter
> Walter Johnson - adjusting for era Pedro has been better, but the Big
> Train has more than twice as many innings under his belt.
> Honus Wagner - I wanted someone in the middle infield, and it was between
> Wagner or Hornsby. Wagner played the tougher position and had a longer
> productive career, so I gave him the nod.
> Josh Gibson - seems to be the consensus best hitter in the Negro Leagues,
> and at catcher too. Some might argue we don't know because we don't have
> the stats; I decide not to penalize him for that, and give him the benefit
> of the doubt.
>
> I feel wrong leaving out guys like Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams and
> Musial, but then I'd have a debut class entirely composed of outfielders.
>
> Colin
>
> ---------------------
> "Science is based on a fundamental insight - that the degree to which an
> idea seems true has nothing to do with whether it is true"
>
>

Can't argue with the ones you picked. Did you leave out Ty Cobb on purpose?

I'd go with:

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Walter Johnson
Nolan Ryan
Stan Musial

Substitute any of the below for any of the above except for Ruth and I have
no complaint:

Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Cy Young
Roberto Clemente
Honus Wagner

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Colin William

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Since: Oct 03, 2003
Posts: 2088



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:40 am
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"Joe Schmoe" <mchome5.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote
> Can't argue with the ones you picked. Did you leave out Ty Cobb on
> purpose?

Same sort of reasoning as with Mantle et al, just didn't want it to be a
list of outfielders.

Colin
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Dale Hicks

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Since: Sep 11, 2007
Posts: 253



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:07 pm
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In article <6cpghtF3h7it7U1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
colintwilliam.RemoveThis@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Joe Schmoe" <mchome5.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote
> > Can't argue with the ones you picked. Did you leave out Ty Cobb on
> > purpose?
>
> Same sort of reasoning as with Mantle et al, just didn't want it to be a
> list of outfielders.

Ty Cobb could've played infield if he'd wanted to.

--
Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net
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Sam Hutcheson

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Since: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 427



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:02 am
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Dale Hicks wrote:

> > "Joe Schmoe" <mchome5.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote
> > > Can't argue with the ones you picked. Did you leave out Ty Cobb on
> > > purpose?
> >
> > Same sort of reasoning as with Mantle et al, just didn't want it to be a
> > list of outfielders.
>
> Ty Cobb could've played infield if he'd wanted to.

You know, sitting around drinking with Chris Dial, Sean Forman, Jim
Furtado, Greg Spira and a few others this weekend, we had a very
spirited "what the hell happened to Weisberg" discussion.

s/
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Sam Hutcheson

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Since: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 427



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:36 am
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Colin William wrote:
> ...who would be the first five players you'd induct in the first class? Joe
> Posnanski poses the question in his latest blog, and I think it's a good
> one:
>
> http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/28/first-class/

Five seems like an arbitary number. I realize it's the "first class",
but if we're tearing it down and starting from scratch, can't we elect
a first "team?" No? I must play by the stated rules even if I don't
like them? Fine. But I'm not limiting my ballot to positional
considerations, then.

Ty Cobb
Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson

Robinson changed the game by simply being there. Cobb and Ruth
changed the game by the force of their talents. Both of those guys
came into a league defined by a singular style of play and left a
league completely redefined by *their* style of play.

Walter Johnson

I am of the opinion that Walter Johnson is the best pitcher to ever
throw a baseball. Lefty Grove and Greg Maddux compete but I'm just
not quite ready to over-write the Big Train's place in history just
yet.

Barry Lamar Bonds

All respect to Josh Gibson aside, it's almost inconceivable that he
was a better hitter than Bonds. Bonds is, quite simply, the best
hitter to ever play the game.

s/
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Sam Hutcheson

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Since: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 427



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:41 am
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Colin William wrote:

> > You know, sitting around drinking with Chris Dial, Sean Forman, Jim
> > Furtado, Greg Spira and a few others this weekend, we had a very
> > spirited "what the hell happened to Weisberg" discussion.
>
> Did you toast maynard?

A second-hand conversation from the stats committee meeting (from
Dial, who attended, not Sam, who did not.)

"We need to get all of those rankings and lists that various people
posted to Usenet and archive them."

"Sure, but you have to promise to kill file RLM first."

"<crickets>"

"Never mind."

s/
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Sam Hutcheson

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Since: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 427



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:15 am
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Colin William wrote:

> > Barry Lamar Bonds
> > All respect to Josh Gibson aside, it's almost inconceivable that he
> > was a better hitter than Bonds. Bonds is, quite simply, the best
> > hitter to ever play the game.
>
> I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

Somebody's gotta represent. 50 years from now, 100 years from now
baseball fans will present historical studies on "what the hell was
wrong with people in 2008? Did you know they didn't even let Bonds
PLAY that year?!?"

s/
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Colin William

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Since: Apr 13, 2005
Posts: 443



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:22 am
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Sam Hutcheson wrote:
> You know, sitting around drinking with Chris Dial, Sean Forman, Jim
> Furtado, Greg Spira and a few others this weekend, we had a very
> spirited "what the hell happened to Weisberg" discussion.

Did you toast maynard?
Cordially, of course.

Colin
(Is he still around? I abandoned rsb quite a while ago)
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Colin William

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Since: Apr 13, 2005
Posts: 443



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:50 am
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Sam Hutcheson wrote:
> Five seems like an arbitary number. I realize it's the "first class",
> but if we're tearing it down and starting from scratch, can't we elect
> a first "team?" No? I must play by the stated rules even if I don't
> like them? Fine. But I'm not limiting my ballot to positional
> considerations, then.

Pos makes the rules here, not me.

> Ty Cobb
> Babe Ruth
> Jackie Robinson
>
> Robinson changed the game by simply being there. Cobb and Ruth
> changed the game by the force of their talents. Both of those guys
> came into a league defined by a singular style of play and left a
> league completely redefined by *their* style of play.

I thought about Cobb, but just couldn't. Wagner strikes me as a better
all around player. And, of course, i did include positional considerations.

> Walter Johnson
> I am of the opinion that Walter Johnson is the best pitcher to ever
> throw a baseball. Lefty Grove and Greg Maddux compete but I'm just
> not quite ready to over-write the Big Train's place in history just
> yet.
>
> Barry Lamar Bonds
> All respect to Josh Gibson aside, it's almost inconceivable that he
> was a better hitter than Bonds. Bonds is, quite simply, the best
> hitter to ever play the game.

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

Colin
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Ben B

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Since: May 01, 2005
Posts: 136



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:06 pm
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On Jun 28, 10:20 pm, "Joe Schmoe" <mcho....DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Did you leave out Ty Cobb on purpose?

he just wanted to.

--
Ben
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Dale Hicks

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Since: Sep 11, 2007
Posts: 253



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:42 pm
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In article <6cs8hpF3ibm3eU3 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>,
colintwilliam RemoveThis @hotmail.com says...
> Sam Hutcheson wrote:
> > You know, sitting around drinking with Chris Dial, Sean Forman, Jim
> > Furtado, Greg Spira and a few others this weekend, we had a very
> > spirited "what the hell happened to Weisberg" discussion.
>
> Did you toast maynard?
> Cordially, of course.
>
> Colin
> (Is he still around? I abandoned rsb quite a while ago)

He's the only one around.

That, and Lu's pointless weekly lists.

--
Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net
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Colin William

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Since: Oct 03, 2003
Posts: 2088



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:13 pm
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"Dale Hicks" <dgh1138.DeleteThis@southernbell.com> wrote
> He's the only one around.
>
> That, and Lu's pointless weekly lists.

He still does those? Wow, that's dedication.

Colin
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Lance Freezeland

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Since: May 19, 2005
Posts: 1260



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:52 pm
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On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:58:48 -0400, "Colin William"
<colintwilliam RemoveThis @hotmail.com> gave us:

>...who would be the first five players you'd induct in the first class? Joe
>Posnanski poses the question in his latest blog, and I think it's a good
>one:

>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/28/first-class/

>I must admit to being sold on his argument re: Jackie Robinson. So I'd
>probably go with:
>Jackie Robinson - for the reasons in the article
>Babe Ruth - probably the game's biggest star, probably its best hitter
>Walter Johnson - adjusting for era Pedro has been better, but the Big Train
>has more than twice as many innings under his belt.
>Honus Wagner - I wanted someone in the middle infield, and it was between
>Wagner or Hornsby. Wagner played the tougher position and had a longer
>productive career, so I gave him the nod.
>Josh Gibson - seems to be the consensus best hitter in the Negro Leagues,
>and at catcher too. Some might argue we don't know because we don't have the
>stats; I decide not to penalize him for that, and give him the benefit of
>the doubt.

>I feel wrong leaving out guys like Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams and Musial,
>but then I'd have a debut class entirely composed of outfielders.

Pool of possible candidates off the top of my head:

First base -- Gehrig, Foxx, Murray, McCovey, Anson, Stargell

Second base -- Collins, Hornsby, Morgan, Sandberg, Lajoie, J. Robinson

Shortstop -- Wagner, Banks, Rodriguez, Yount, Ripken, Cronin

Third base -- Schmidt, Brett, Matthews, Boggs

Catchers -- Berra, Bench, Dickey, J. Gibson, Fisk, Carter, Simmons,
Piazza

Left field -- Williams, Musial, Bonds, Ott, Yastrzemski

Center field -- Mays, Mantle, Cobb, DiMaggio, Speaker, Snider

Right field -- Ruth, Aaron, Clemente, Kaline, F. Robinson

RHP -- Johnson, Matthewson, B. Gibson, Seaver, Clemens, Maddux, C.
Young, Alexander, Feller

LHP -- Grove, Spahn, Carlton, Koufax, Ford

Relievers -- Gossage, Fingers, Sutter, Wilhelm, Rivera, Hoffman

My top five? Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Walter Johnson, Honus Wagner
and Willie Mays.

--
Lance

"I believe in the Church of Baseball" Annie Savoy


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tcol

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Since: Mar 31, 2007
Posts: 54



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:13 pm
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