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Expos to be renamed Senators

 
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John Smith

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Since: May 25, 2004
Posts: 55



(Msg. 16) Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Expos to be renamed Senators [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>baseball>montreal-expos (more info?)

"no_other" <dsciswe.RemoveThis@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:a9334a95.0408042057.ab443f9@posting.google.com...


> As meaningless as the poor attendance for the Wizards and Capitals??
> Not really meaningless, Washington is a public employee town and has a
> high turnover rate,

That's a myth. That's the DC of the 60's. The DC of the 00's has a
significant non-public employee sector, a low turnover rate, and high levels
of disposible income.

> both very bad things for a baseball franchise
> (which needs fans who want to be active at the game, not taking a
> night off). What Washington fans did in the past is a good indicator
> as to what they'll do in the future.

Its wholly and completely irrelvant as the DC market then and the DC market
now are wholly different creatures. Its lke judging the market for busts
of Sadaam Hussein in Iraq based on market conditions five years ago.
(Hint... the once substantial market has pretty much disappeared...)

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Brent McKee

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Since: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 12



(Msg. 17) Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Expos to be renamed Senators [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Robertazimmerman" <bobdylan DeleteThis @iname.com> wrote in message
news:u0n4h014cmhda12mil9hktg969tf9h8l6e@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> I guess people are hoping for a renaissance like the Alouettes
> >> experienced when they returned to Montreal. They left town
because
> >of
> >> poor attendence and have sold out countless consecutive games
since
> >> returning, drawing 20k for every game. If the Expos attracted 20k
> >per
> >> game, they'd remain in Montreal.
> >
> >As I recall the Alouettes did worse than leave town because of poor
> >attendance -- they went bankrupt and were renamed the Concorde and
> >then a few years later were folded entirely. The team that exists
> >today is only success story of the CFL's US expansion, the old
> >Baltimore Stallions, moved and renamed. That said they have become
a
> >real success, in part because they are in a smaller outdoor stadium
> >rather than the Big Owe. Olympic Stadium was a mistake on so many
> >levels that it is depressing.
>
> I wasn't trying to give all of the sordid details; simply the fact
> that they left and enjoyed a renaissance on their return. The fact
> that they were the Baltimore Stallions is irrelevent. I don't think
> too many Folks from MD attend Alouettes' games.

Not a lot but there are apparently a few die-hards who did for years.
The point being that the Als don't have a contiguous timeline within
the league.

> Are you saying that the Big Owe is the problem and that if they
played
> elsewhere, the fans would return? If so, how do you explain the
> none-too-shabby attendences in 1994 and 1995?

No, I don't think that you can call the Big Owe the problem since that
implies that it's the whole problem. It is however a major part of
the problem; for the Expos I'd say second behind bad ownership --
Brochu wasn't big enough financially, while Loria was nearly criminal
in his manipulations. What we know from the new Alouettes' experience
is that the one year (1996) that they operated at Olympic Stadium,
attendance was terrible; when they moved to the more centrally located
(and outdoor) Percival Molson Stadium attendance improved
significantly. If the Expos had begun seriously looking at a smaller
outdoor stadium closer to the city centre when that locomotive sized
chunk of the Big Owe fell, I think we'd be talking about baseball in
this group rather than about the business and economic side.

--
Brent McKee

To reply by email, please remove the capital letters (S and N) from
the email address

"If we cease to judge this world, we may find ourselves, very quickly,
in one which is infinitely worse."
- Margaret Atwood

"Nothing is more dangerous than a dogmatic worldview - nothing more
constraining, more blinding to innovation, more destructive of
openness to novelty. "
- Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002)

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Lord Calvert

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Since: Mar 23, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:01 am
Post subject: Re: Expos to be renamed Senators [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

>I find it interesting that most of the posts in this newsgroup relate
>to bad-mouthing prospective homes for the team instead of emphasizing
>the reasons why the team should stay in Montreal (if there are any).
>Isn't this a somewhat defeatist attitude?

Not at all. It is because besides being Expos fans we care about baseball as a
whole. Any idiot can root for the Yankees. It takes a real fan of the game of
baseball to root for the Expos. Many of the reasons we are so harsh towards
some of the prospective homes for the Expos (particularly Washington which has
a long, well established history of not supporting baseball) is that moving the
Expos just for the sake of moving them is not healthy for the league as a whole
and that moving them into a city which is demonstrably a bad baseball town is
potentially much, much worse for the league than leaving them in place.

We've seen it happen recently when, for the 1993 expansion, the National League
threw out their own qualifications for expansion and gave the franchises to the
two cities they wanted to in the first place, even though other cities better
met their qualifications. Now one of cities can't draw diddly, even when
they've won two World Series, while the city which has led the minors in
attendance for the last two decades and had a major-league caliber
baseball-only downtown facility on the ground at the time got the shaft because
they weren't allowed to count population less than two miles from the ballpark
while the city which can't draw diddly got consideration for an entire region
consisting of a couple of dozen independent nations hundreds of miles away. We
know from experience that baseball can make horrific decisions in this regard
because we've seen them do it. The decision to plant a franchise in Miami where
no one cared about them ranks as one of the great bonehead moves of the last
half-century in sports. We do not want to see that happen again, particularly
regarding the team we support, and we greatly fear that if the Expos are placed
in Washington, a city which has a considerably worse attendance record than the
Expos over twice the period of time, that that is exactly what will happen.

There are many reasons why the team should stay in Montreal, however all of
them are trumped by a commissioner who has worked tirelessly for a decade to
deliberately destroy baseball in this city for reasons no sane and sensible
person can begin to imagine. This is why he's in court facing racketeering
charges. When the commissioner, who's job it is to protect baseball, works
overtime to destroy baseball in your city, can you blame any fan for staying
away?

The best thing that could happen for baseball, not just in Montreal but
everywhere, is that Selig and Loria are found guilty of racketeering and that
the civil charges against them are followed up by criminal charges and they
spend a nice long period of time in orange jumpsuits, after being fined their
100 million $US times 3.

Rich Goranson
Amherst, NY, USA
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john smith

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Since: Jul 06, 2003
Posts: 42



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:14 am
Post subject: Re: Expos to be renamed Senators [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Lord Calvert" <forlornh.TakeThisOut@aol.complicated> dropped some more of his usual
effluent when he said:

> some of the prospective homes for the Expos (particularly Washington which
has
> a long, well established history of not supporting baseball) is that
moving the
> Expos just for the sake of moving them is not healthy for the league as a
whole
> and that moving them into a city which is demonstrably a bad baseball town
is
> potentially much, much worse for the league than leaving them in place.

Quit putting forth this sophist bulls--t. The DC baseball history is
THIRTY years old. What happened THIRTY years ago is wholly and completely
irrelevant. And you know it... but you are being intellecutally
dishonest...

And I know why... if the Expos move to DC they will be a big hit and it
will magnify the "failure" of the Expos. If they move to one of the minor
markets, the Expos failure will not be maginfied..

And as long as you live in a provincial cow town like Buffalo, you should
face having no major league team. (and in light of the Paranoid security
restrictions now in place on the border, counting Canadians as potential
fans really is lunacy..._
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Robertazimmerman

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Since: Oct 25, 2003
Posts: 79



(Msg. 20) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:29 am
Post subject: Re: Expos to be renamed Senators [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi,

I appreciate your sincerity and obvious strong feelings towards the
Expos and the hoped-for integrity of the game and its bosses.
But....this is a business and if I was the owner of the Expos, I'd be
saying to myself, "well, we can't seem to draw crowds in a so-called
small market (which it's not; how many MLB cities have larger
populations than Mtl?), why not try elsewhere?"

Sure, we can bring up stats from the past to find reasons why
virtually any city is not a viable option, but from a purely economic
perspective, my approach would be to find the area with the largest
population that has a rep for supporting other local basketball,
football and hockey franchises. Which is not to say that DC is a good
option, but I can't think of one good reason to keep the team in
Montreal. The fan base is miniscule, there are no TV revenues and the
stadium is (questionably) poor.

So, some can say that moving the team, is a move for moving sake. As
an owner, I would say that, for the last 10 years, Montreal has proven
itself not to support baseball. Therefore I would be ready to take a
chance on moving somewhere else, particularly if I could tax breaks
from the local governments.

Just my 2 cents (Cdn.)

Roberta



On 07 Aug 2004 05:01:59 GMT, forlornh RemoveThis @aol.complicated (Lord Calvert)
wrote:

>
>>I find it interesting that most of the posts in this newsgroup relate
>>to bad-mouthing prospective homes for the team instead of emphasizing
>>the reasons why the team should stay in Montreal (if there are any).
>>Isn't this a somewhat defeatist attitude?
>
>Not at all. It is because besides being Expos fans we care about baseball as a
>whole. Any idiot can root for the Yankees. It takes a real fan of the game of
>baseball to root for the Expos. Many of the reasons we are so harsh towards
>some of the prospective homes for the Expos (particularly Washington which has
>a long, well established history of not supporting baseball) is that moving the
>Expos just for the sake of moving them is not healthy for the league as a whole
>and that moving them into a city which is demonstrably a bad baseball town is
>potentially much, much worse for the league than leaving them in place.
>
>We've seen it happen recently when, for the 1993 expansion, the National League
>threw out their own qualifications for expansion and gave the franchises to the
>two cities they wanted to in the first place, even though other cities better
>met their qualifications. Now one of cities can't draw diddly, even when
>they've won two World Series, while the city which has led the minors in
>attendance for the last two decades and had a major-league caliber
>baseball-only downtown facility on the ground at the time got the shaft because
>they weren't allowed to count population less than two miles from the ballpark
>while the city which can't draw diddly got consideration for an entire region
>consisting of a couple of dozen independent nations hundreds of miles away. We
>know from experience that baseball can make horrific decisions in this regard
>because we've seen them do it. The decision to plant a franchise in Miami where
>no one cared about them ranks as one of the great bonehead moves of the last
>half-century in sports. We do not want to see that happen again, particularly
>regarding the team we support, and we greatly fear that if the Expos are placed
>in Washington, a city which has a considerably worse attendance record than the
>Expos over twice the period of time, that that is exactly what will happen.
>
>There are many reasons why the team should stay in Montreal, however all of
>them are trumped by a commissioner who has worked tirelessly for a decade to
>deliberately destroy baseball in this city for reasons no sane and sensible
>person can begin to imagine. This is why he's in court facing racketeering
>charges. When the commissioner, who's job it is to protect baseball, works
>overtime to destroy baseball in your city, can you blame any fan for staying
>away?
>
>The best thing that could happen for baseball, not just in Montreal but
>everywhere, is that Selig and Loria are found guilty of racketeering and that
>the civil charges against them are followed up by criminal charges and they
>spend a nice long period of time in orange jumpsuits, after being fined their
>100 million $US times 3.
>
>Rich Goranson
>Amherst, NY, USA
>
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