I was pretty disappointed...

Steve M. Mann wrote:
> ...With the trade of Adam. However, after reading some of his quotes,
> I'm not sure I mind as much now. Granted, I'm reading between the lines,
> but seems like he didn't have much of a desire to stay with the Reds.
>
> "It was one of those pleasant surprises," Dunn said of the call
> informing him of the deal. "Coming off of a terrible series that we had
> -- and it's been a terrible month we've had in Cincinnati -- and I get a
> phone call today saying I've been traded to a first-place team. As a
> player, that's all you ask for."
>
> More here:
> http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080811&content_id=3291208&vk...news_ci
>
.....why in the heck would a player want to play out the string on a team
like this? Loyalty to his laundry? He's got a chance to play for a first
place team.

This shows you how silly I am. I'm hoping that he went to Walt and
said..."Look Walt, I want you to trade me for whatever you can get. Come
signing time, I'll listen to your offer just as I would if you kept me
and we played out the string."

Man, hope springs eternal.

dfs
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:22:25 -0500, "Steve M. Mann"
<rockermannLOOSEIT.TakeThisOut@steve-mann.com> wrote:

>...With the trade of Adam. However, after reading some of his quotes,
>I'm not sure I mind as much now. Granted, I'm reading between the lines,
>but seems like he didn't have much of a desire to stay with the Reds.

Well, you didn't have to read between the lines when he outright said
that he was interested in staying earlier this season (not that long ago
that dreams of making the playoffs this year would have been deluding
him). You can certainly doubt that he meant it, but as I pointed out
yesterday, most of you guys were certain he was going to bolt the first
time he had a chance, and he didn't.

>"It was one of those pleasant surprises," Dunn said of the call
>informing him of the deal. "Coming off of a terrible series that we had
>-- and it's been a terrible month we've had in Cincinnati -- and I get a
>phone call today saying I've been traded to a first-place team. As a
>player, that's all you ask for."

Well, he gets to play, perhaps, in his first playoff games. He'll still
be a FA at the end of the year anyway, and he's making millions in any
case. None of that, however, means they couldn't have resigned him, and
at the very least, got something back for him equal to his worth.

For all the arm waving over The Trade with Jimbo a few years ago, that
was one where we dealt guys who "might" do something, or "might" be able
to replicate their career year highs. In this case, they dealt Dunn, who
does what he does year in and year out, is still only 28, and with who's
absence an already inconsistent lineup has now essentially been
castrated (go look at the OPS numbers of what we have left to trot out
there every night) and in return received essentially nothing.

If they wanted to trade him, the worst they should have done was
received equal value.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

Kevin McClave wrote:
> If they wanted to trade him, the worst they should have done was
> received equal value.

We can only hope the PTBNL list contains some gold and that Walt can
find it. It's impossible to evaluate this deal without knowing who is on
that list. The diamondbacks DO have a deep well of talent. It's possible
that Buck is the worst player involved in the deal. If that's the case,
it starts to look a lot better.

dfs
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:24:56 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short.DeleteThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:

>Kevin McClave wrote:
>> If they wanted to trade him, the worst they should have done was
>> received equal value.
>
>We can only hope the PTBNL list contains some gold and that Walt can
>find it. It's impossible to evaluate this deal without knowing who is on
>that list. The diamondbacks DO have a deep well of talent. It's possible
>that Buck is the worst player involved in the deal. If that's the case,
>it starts to look a lot better.

How often have PTBNL later been the best players in a deal? Not guys who
emerged beyond expectation, but guys who were the more legitimate
prospects at the time of the deal?

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, Kevin McClave
<kmcclave.RemoveThis@SPAM666twcny.rr.com>?

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:24:56 -0400, David Short
> <David.no.Short.RemoveThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
>
>>Kevin McClave wrote:
>>> If they wanted to trade him, the worst they should have done
>>> was received equal value.
>>
>>We can only hope the PTBNL list contains some gold and that Walt
>>can find it. It's impossible to evaluate this deal without
>>knowing who is on that list. The diamondbacks DO have a deep
>>well of talent. It's possible that Buck is the worst player
>>involved in the deal. If that's the case, it starts to look a
>>lot better.
>
> How often have PTBNL later been the best players in a deal? Not
> guys who emerged beyond expectation, but guys who were the more
> legitimate prospects at the time of the deal?

Quoting the Enquirer here:

The Reds could have kept Dunn for the rest of the year and
gotten draft picks had he left the team as a free agent.

But in order for that to happen, the Reds would have had to
offer Dunn arbitration. In that instance, Dunn could have
accepted the Reds' offer and he would have been back on the
roster, and eligible for a big one-year contract.

Miller said the Dunn trade to Arizona was preferable because the
Reds got the players they wanted.

"We felt this was a good deal," Miller said. "We got three
quality players."

"Miller" being Reds assistant general manager Bob Miller ... my
read on this is, the Reds already know who the PTBNL's are, they
just can't release that information yet. For whatever reason.

--
Cheers,
--Jeff
Let's Go Orange!
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

On Aug 13, 12:16 pm, "Kommienezuspadt" <NoS....RemoveThis@NoWay.com> wrote:
> "David Short" <David.no.Sh....RemoveThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:g7s3tb$jc7$1@posting.glorb.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Steve M. Mann wrote:
> >> ...With the trade of Adam. However, after reading some of his quotes,
> >> I'm not sure I mind as much now. Granted, I'm reading between the lines,
> >> but seems like he didn't have much of a desire to stay with the Reds.
>
> >> "It was one of those pleasant surprises," Dunn said of the call
> >> informing him of the deal. "Coming off of a terrible series that we had
> >> -- and it's been a terrible month we've had in Cincinnati -- and I get a
> >> phone call today saying I've been traded to a first-place team. As a
> >> player, that's all you ask for."
>
> >> More here:
> >>http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080811&content_id=3291208&v...
>
> > ....why in the heck would a player want to play out the string on a team
> > like this? Loyalty to his laundry? He's got a chance to play for a first
> > place team.
>
> > This shows you how silly I am. I'm hoping that he went to Walt and
> > said..."Look Walt, I want you to trade me for whatever you can get. Come
> > signing time, I'll listen to your offer just as I would if you kept me and
> > we played out the string."
>
> > Man, hope springs eternal.
>
> > dfs
>
> What I was sad to see was him saying he'd even catch if that is what the
> team wanted from him ----  why the change in sentiment?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Maybe he's been more willing to change, but management never really
asked because they've each been a pussy?
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

"David Short" <David.no.Short.DeleteThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote in message
news:g7s3tb$jc7$1@posting.glorb.com...
> Steve M. Mann wrote:
>> ...With the trade of Adam. However, after reading some of his quotes,
>> I'm not sure I mind as much now. Granted, I'm reading between the lines,
>> but seems like he didn't have much of a desire to stay with the Reds.
>>
>> "It was one of those pleasant surprises," Dunn said of the call
>> informing him of the deal. "Coming off of a terrible series that we had
>> -- and it's been a terrible month we've had in Cincinnati -- and I get a
>> phone call today saying I've been traded to a first-place team. As a
>> player, that's all you ask for."
>>
>> More here:
>> http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080811&content_id=3291208&vk...news_ci
>>
> ....why in the heck would a player want to play out the string on a team
> like this? Loyalty to his laundry? He's got a chance to play for a first
> place team.
>
> This shows you how silly I am. I'm hoping that he went to Walt and
> said..."Look Walt, I want you to trade me for whatever you can get. Come
> signing time, I'll listen to your offer just as I would if you kept me and
> we played out the string."
>
> Man, hope springs eternal.
>
> dfs

What I was sad to see was him saying he'd even catch if that is what the
team wanted from him ---- why the change in sentiment?
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

David Short wrote:
>> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, Kevin McClave
>>> How often have PTBNL later been the best players in a deal? Not
>>> guys who emerged beyond expectation, but guys who were the more
>>> legitimate prospects at the time of the deal?
>
> I honestly don't have a clue about the answer to this question.

And it looks like this may be one of those cases.
The third player was named today.
A AAA catcher who played all over the diamond this year.

Hal McCoy says...
"Wilkin Castillo, 24, is listed as a catcher, but in recent times with
Arizona's Class AAA Tucson he has played shortstop, third base and left
field."

"In 104 games this season he has hit .254 with six home runs and 47 RBIs
for Tucson. He will join the Reds' Triple-A club in Louisville."

If I have to sort them...I'll go Owens, Buck, Castillo. It looks to me
like this one's career had just stalled.
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

On Aug 15, 8:41 am, David Short
<David.no.Sh....RemoveThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
> Kevin McClave wrote:
> > Is this a deal to get even mildly optimistic about?
>
> What they got from the Diamondbacks is probably better, cheaper and
> closer to the majors than the two draft picks they would have recieved
> for letting Dunn walk.
>

Micah Owings isnt a bad return at all, especially if he can overcome
his current injury. He's not going to be a #1, but we're at least
talking about a pitcher of which another organization thought highly.

assuming next year:

Harang
Volquez
Cueto
Arroyo
Owings

with Bailey and Thompson at AAA.

If healthy, thats sure to be one of the better rotations in the
league. With Cordero, Bray, and Burton carrying the pen, the pitching
seems to be in place. Also, this gives Walt room to deal Arroyo and
Bailey this winter.

But i'm getting way ahead of things here. We dont know for sure that
Micah is the guy. I'm guilty of already reaching for next years kool-
aid.
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:57:48 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short DeleteThis @Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:

>David Short wrote:
>>> Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, Kevin McClave
>>>> How often have PTBNL later been the best players in a deal? Not
>>>> guys who emerged beyond expectation, but guys who were the more
>>>> legitimate prospects at the time of the deal?
>>
>> I honestly don't have a clue about the answer to this question.
>
>And it looks like this may be one of those cases.

Where the best prospect or prospects are the PTBNL?

>The third player was named today.
>A AAA catcher who played all over the diamond this year.

Why was he not named initially, and yet only a few days after the deal?
Was it that they were still negotiating from a short list or something?
That doesn't seem wise if the big guy you traded away is already there.
No bargaining power.

>Hal McCoy says...
>"Wilkin Castillo, 24, is listed as a catcher, but in recent times with
>Arizona's Class AAA Tucson he has played shortstop, third base and left
>field."
>
>"In 104 games this season he has hit .254 with six home runs and 47 RBIs
>for Tucson. He will join the Reds' Triple-A club in Louisville."
>
>If I have to sort them...I'll go Owens, Buck, Castillo. It looks to me
>like this one's career had just stalled.

So, it doesn't sound like you';re saying that this is a case where the
players to be named were the true prospects and the first guy we hear
about is the worst player?

Is this a deal to get even mildly optimistic about? Is it a salary dump?
What is it, exactly? Because I'm not feeling any better knowing the
PTBNL than I did before I knew them. Two sore armed pitchers and a guy
who doesn't have a position and doesn't really hit?

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, this is *exactly* the scenario
I've always feared.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

Kevin McClave wrote:
> Is this a deal to get even mildly optimistic about?

What they got from the Diamondbacks is probably better, cheaper and
closer to the majors than the two draft picks they would have recieved
for letting Dunn walk.

>Is it a salary dump?

Partially. You and I don't know what was said and by whom. If Dunn
really expects to sign a $200 million dollar contract as Arroyo
supposedly said in the reds locker room, than the reds were not going to
re-sign him.

With Junior gone and the reds on an 0-12 jag, Dunn might have gone to
the front office and said..."look get me out of here. I'll still listen
to free agent offers from you guys, but I'm sick and tired of the bull
that's constantly flung." or he could have said..."You ain't signin me."

We just don't know.

> What is it, exactly? Because I'm not feeling any better knowing the
> PTBNL than I did before I knew them. Two sore armed pitchers and a guy
> who doesn't have a position and doesn't really hit?

It was a great deal from the D-backs perspective. Both Buck and Owens
are on the short list of best reds minor league pitcher. Owens has
certainly outpitched Bailey.

> Unless someone can convince me otherwise, this is *exactly* the scenario
> I've always feared.

As I warned above, I don't know, but I think it was the reds
acknowledging that they were not going to be able to pay the freight to
keep Adam Dunn in town.

dfs
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:41:49 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short.DeleteThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:

>Kevin McClave wrote:
>> Is this a deal to get even mildly optimistic about?
>
>What they got from the Diamondbacks is probably better, cheaper and
>closer to the majors than the two draft picks they would have recieved
>for letting Dunn walk.

So, I'll take that as a "no?"

>>Is it a salary dump?
>
>Partially. You and I don't know what was said and by whom. If Dunn
>really expects to sign a $200 million dollar contract as Arroyo
>supposedly said in the reds locker room, than the reds were not going to
>re-sign him.
>
>With Junior gone and the reds on an 0-12 jag, Dunn might have gone to
>the front office and said..."look get me out of here. I'll still listen
>to free agent offers from you guys, but I'm sick and tired of the bull
>that's constantly flung." or he could have said..."You ain't signin me."
>
>We just don't know.

No, we don't. And you'll notice that I haven't complained once that they
traded Dunn, only that they got jack in return.

>> What is it, exactly? Because I'm not feeling any better knowing the
>> PTBNL than I did before I knew them. Two sore armed pitchers and a guy
>> who doesn't have a position and doesn't really hit?
>
>It was a great deal from the D-backs perspective.

Obviously.

>Both Buck and Owens
>are on the short list of best reds minor league pitcher. Owens has
>certainly outpitched Bailey.

Well...you know just as much about circuses as I do, David...


>> Unless someone can convince me otherwise, this is *exactly* the scenario
>> I've always feared.
>
>As I warned above, I don't know, but I think it was the reds
>acknowledging that they were not going to be able to pay the freight to
>keep Adam Dunn in town.

And that is entirely *not* the point. If you're going to trade him, get
equal value in return. I think it is pretty clear they didn't. They may
fall ass backwards in to something, but that will be luck, not a good
transaction.

********************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"Courage, the footstool of the Virtues, upon
which they stand." ~Robert Louis Stevenson
********************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed... 

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclaveSPAM DIES.DeleteThis@HEREtwcny.rr.com>
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:41:49 -0400, David Short
>>As I warned above, I don't know, but I think it was the reds
>>acknowledging that they were not going to be able to pay the freight to
>>keep Adam Dunn in town.
>
> And that is entirely *not* the point. If you're going to trade him, get
> equal value in return. I think it is pretty clear they didn't. They may
> fall ass backwards in to something, but that will be luck, not a good
> transaction.

.....equal value? How much is 45 games of Adam Dunn worth?

I mean...if you've made the decision that you can't (aren't gonna) resign
him (and we don't know exactly when the decision was made) then you have two
courses open to you. You can either keep him and ride him as far into your
season as you think he can carry you, or you can trade him. Now, I think it
was pretty much common public knowledge that with the no-trade clause in his
contract the reds couldn't trade Dunn till July. At that point, rightly or
wrongly they didn't want to mail in the season. The team goes 0-12 and they
decide to deal him. Exactly what do they have to deal? 45 games of Adam
Dunn. Not his whole future. And whoever gets those 45 games gets a couple of
draft picks where they can pick up somebody like Chris Valakia...AFTER
meeting the kids signing demands (Case in point, This is the last day the
reds have to sign that firstbaseman out of Miami, Yonder Alonso...as I write
this they have 30 minutes to finalize the deal. Apparently it's gonna cost
the reds 5 million to get this kid to sign)

So....Is 45 games of Adam Dunn and those two (potentially very expensive
draft picks) worth a low A ball starter who was very well thought of out of
college, an intrigueing player who may become a decent starter and may end
up being an every day hitter, AND a young left handed hitting catcher that
is athletic enough to play shortstop? ...

It's not like your trading Jason Bay who is signed to a deal and the other
team gets to keep him. It's 45 games of Adam Dunn and you have one team you
can negotiate with. They left themselves with very little leverage. You can
blame them for that. If they were not gonna be serious about resigning Dunn,
then they should have dealt him the second his no-trade clause kicked out.

dfs
\
 >> Stay informed about: I was pretty disappointed...