How did population decline affect Expos attendance?

In article <g_Isd.4026$Ou1.201990@weber.videotron.net>,
"Sean" <sdf RemoveThis @sdf.com> wrote:

> anobody else kinda pissed the blue jays didn't vote against relocation?

Remember they also were in favor of contraction in 2001.

> they could have shown some support to their canadian counterpart, especially
> with rogers now trying to come into quebec

I think you answered your own question. Maybe they're thinking that with
the Expos gone, what baseball fans are left will become Blue Jays fans
(thus increasing their ratings).
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 12:12:39 -0500, "David Szabo"
<dave.szabo.DeleteThis@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>In the early 80's there was an exodus of anglophones from Montreal due to
>referendum concerns (and a sheep-like "blind following the blind" mass
>mentality on the part of many) but this seems to have had no impact on

"Blind leading the blind"???? Give me a break. The economic
opportunities in Toronto far exceeded, and continue to exceed the
opportunities n Quebec. Couple that with the prvonce's racist language
laws, which despite being condemned by the UN and deemed as ilegal,
continue to give Quebec a bad name on the world stage.

So it isn't the blind leading the blind, but ex-pats such as my hubby
and I giving Quebec politicians and lawmakers the upwardly extended
middle fingers and making better lives for themselves elsewhere.

Roberta & Abbie
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 16:13:04 -0800, "John C. Baker"
<jcb10 RemoveThis @axe.humboldt.edu> wrote:

>I think you answered your own question. Maybe they're thinking that with
>the Expos gone, what baseball fans are left will become Blue Jays fans
>(thus increasing their ratings).

It's the last thing on their minds. It's another example of misguided
Montrealers believing that Torontonians give a hoot as to what happens
in Quebec.

R & A
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

very wishful thinking on their part, no Montreal Expos fan in their right
mind would ever become a Boo Jays fan!
"John C. Baker" <jcb10 DeleteThis @axe.humboldt.edu> wrote in message
news:jcb10-268683.16130405122004@news.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <g_Isd.4026$Ou1.201990@weber.videotron.net>,
> "Sean" <sdf DeleteThis @sdf.com> wrote:
>
>> anobody else kinda pissed the blue jays didn't vote against relocation?
>
> Remember they also were in favor of contraction in 2001.
>
>> they could have shown some support to their canadian counterpart,
>> especially
>> with rogers now trying to come into quebec
>
> I think you answered your own question. Maybe they're thinking that with
> the Expos gone, what baseball fans are left will become Blue Jays fans
> (thus increasing their ratings).
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

Better lives?? How on earth can anyone think that life in Toronto is better
than here, besides the language laws which since have been significantly
relaxed. The cost of living in Toronto is significantly higher and the
cultural scene there is pretty lacking. No one I know who moved to Toronto
ended up any better off than they would have been here and many actually
moved back to Montreal after a frustrated realization of this.
"Robertazimmerman" <bobdylan RemoveThis @iname.com> wrote in message
news:t6r7r0dkfu4lm2t7duqsto32t291qonb4t@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 12:12:39 -0500, "David Szabo"
> <dave.szabo RemoveThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>In the early 80's there was an exodus of anglophones from Montreal due to
>>referendum concerns (and a sheep-like "blind following the blind" mass
>>mentality on the part of many) but this seems to have had no impact on
>
> "Blind leading the blind"???? Give me a break. The economic
> opportunities in Toronto far exceeded, and continue to exceed the
> opportunities n Quebec. Couple that with the prvonce's racist language
> laws, which despite being condemned by the UN and deemed as ilegal,
> continue to give Quebec a bad name on the world stage.
>
> So it isn't the blind leading the blind, but ex-pats such as my hubby
> and I giving Quebec politicians and lawmakers the upwardly extended
> middle fingers and making better lives for themselves elsewhere.
>
> Roberta & Abbie
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:29:35 -0500, "David Szabo"
<dave.szabo.DeleteThis@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Better lives?? How on earth can anyone think that life in Toronto is better
>than here, besides the language laws which since have been significantly
>relaxed. The cost of living in Toronto is significantly higher and the
>cultural scene there is pretty lacking. No one I know who moved to Toronto
>ended up any better off than they would have been here and many actually
>moved back to Montreal after a frustrated realization of this.

I was in Montreal last weekend and found the city to be dirty and
dull. Like many others, Montrealers like to think that their city stil
has the aura and mystiqwue that it did in the 50's and 60's. Those
days are long gone.

Yes, the cost of living is marginally higher than in Montreal, but the
incomes are significantly higher and ALL taxes are lower. My sister,
who lives in Montreal pays approximately $10k/yr. in property taxes. I
pay 1/3 of that amount in Toronto for a home that is worth quite a lot
more than my sister's. Income taxes are lower here and believe it or
not, the cost of consumer goods is generally lower here as well. I had
a copy of a Future Shop flyer which I brought with me to Montreal, as
my sister was looking to buy some video equipment. The Gazette had the
identical flyer with higher prices for the Future Shop stores in
Quebec! The difference was not significant, maybe $1-2 on a $100 item,
but the prices were higher in Montreal.

My hubby's income increased by over 30% for the identical work, when
he moved to Toronto. When factoring in the lower income and property
taxes, he ended up with appropximately 40% more cash in his pocket.

Cultural scene lacking? What a joke! With 4 theatres running
Broadway-level shows and many international acts playing Toronto
exclusively as their Canadian stops, the cultural scene is far more
vibrant here than in Montreal. How many Broadway/London shows does
Place des Arts host per year? One......two....?

Montrealers still think that its city has the best restaurants? Check
out the Zagat and Frohmer guides and see how many Montreal restaurants
are listed.

Sports? Well that's a joke too. Nordiques, Expos, Alouettes (once or
twice?) Concordes........

Toronto has a MLB team, an NBA team and contrary to Montrealer's
beliefs, if the NFL was to come to Canada, I think we all know which
city would get the franchise.

For 30 straight years, the exodus from Montreal to Toronto has
greartly exceeded the reverse. Montreal has higher poverty rates,
higher unemployment rates, lower immigration rates, lower GNP, lower
average incomes and far less multiculturalism (Toronto is the most
multiculturally diverse city in North America).

The only argument Montrealers tend to have these days is that Montreal
"has a better night life". Firstly, I've been hearing that since the
60's and it's cliched by now and BS. Secondly, how does one measure
the quality of a city's night life? You can't. And to be quite honest,
in the grand scheme of things for over-25's, it's really not that
important. Jobs, homes, schooling are the important issues in life not
whether a city's bars are open until 1:00, 2:00 or 3:00AM.

Language laws relaxed? They're racist! I continue to be disgusted by
indoor signs in Quebec that have their English descriptions at half
the size of the French equivalent....and it's the law! There are
stores in Toronto that have signs exclusively in Chines, Phillipino,
Arabic, etc. Freedom of expression is the law in North
America.....excpet for Quebec, of course.

If I move to Quebec from Spain with my wife and two 5 year olds, I am
forced by law to enrol the kids in a French school, even if they speak
English perfectly and not a single word of French! Racist!

If I want my communications with the government in English, I have to
request it in writing. The fact that documents can be printed in
English on one side and in French on the other is irrelevent to the
Quebec politicians. French it is.

In 1993, the United Nations Human Rights Committee ruled that Quebec's
sign laws broke an international covenant on civil and political
rights. "A State may choose one or more official languages, the
committee wrote, but it may not exclude outside the spheres of public
life, the freedom to express oneself in a certain language.

Reacting to these events, Robert Bourassa introduced Bill 86, which
allowed English on outdoor commercial signs only if the French
lettering was at least twice as large as the English.

The fact that Quebec has been admonished by the United Nations should
have made the feds in Ottawa cut off all payments to Quebec until
these laws were reversed. But they're afraid of losing Quebec
federalist voters.

So, to be honest, I can't think of one good reason for a
non-Francophone to live in Montreal. Sure, if someone has lived there
all of his/her life and doesn't want to make a move, then by all means
enjoy all that Montreal has to offer. but, in terms of economic,
cultural and social benefits, there ain't no comparison.

Having lived in Montreal for more than 1/2 of my life, I think I have
a good perspective on the merits of the two cities.

Roberta

Whew....that was long one.
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

> So, to be honest, I can't think of one good reason for a
> non-Francophone to live in Montreal.

As a non-francophone living in quebec, I resent that.

Here are a couple things Montreal has over Toronto:

No stupid carts running around the streets.
No food stands on every corner selling disgusting giant hotdogs.
A hockey team that isn't hated by everyone in canada except people in
southern Ontario.
The ability of the people here to not whine and complain about snow.
Cheaper and better universities (ask the couple hundred torontonians i go to
school with).
Not trying to be just like every other big american city, (ie your gloating
of the nba/nhl/mlb franchises and broadway shows, who cares)
and finally, the french people.

One last thing, last year, i went to Toronto and arrived in the city at a
very early hour. We just walked around a little before stores opened and
were shocked at the hundreds of homeless people walking around everywhere.
Sure Montreal has its homeless people, but not nearly as many. Who cares
really, as long as everyone in toronto is making so much money (that seems
to be the main point of your argument)
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

And as for property taxes, Montreal's being much higher than Toronto's
becomes a very irrelevant factor when you consider how much more houses cost
in Toronto as compared to Montreal. The few thousand bucks you save on
property taxes per year are completely negated by the tens or even hundreds
of thousands of dollars more you have to spend on house...which leads to
much more interest paid on mortgages and sigificanty higher monthly mortgage
payments. Your friend may be paying $10K in property taxes but that has got
to be one really large nice home they live in as compared to what your are
paying $3K a year in property taxes for!
"Robertazimmerman" <bobdylan.TakeThisOut@iname.com> wrote in message
news:83ier0pvijkp3qudqtsg3re61lhjbhg1i5@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:29:35 -0500, "David Szabo"
> <dave.szabo.TakeThisOut@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>Better lives?? How on earth can anyone think that life in Toronto is
>>better
>>than here, besides the language laws which since have been significantly
>>relaxed. The cost of living in Toronto is significantly higher and the
>>cultural scene there is pretty lacking. No one I know who moved to Toronto
>>ended up any better off than they would have been here and many actually
>>moved back to Montreal after a frustrated realization of this.
>
> I was in Montreal last weekend and found the city to be dirty and
> dull. Like many others, Montrealers like to think that their city stil
> has the aura and mystiqwue that it did in the 50's and 60's. Those
> days are long gone.
>
> Yes, the cost of living is marginally higher than in Montreal, but the
> incomes are significantly higher and ALL taxes are lower. My sister,
> who lives in Montreal pays approximately $10k/yr. in property taxes. I
> pay 1/3 of that amount in Toronto for a home that is worth quite a lot
> more than my sister's. Income taxes are lower here and believe it or
> not, the cost of consumer goods is generally lower here as well. I had
> a copy of a Future Shop flyer which I brought with me to Montreal, as
> my sister was looking to buy some video equipment. The Gazette had the
> identical flyer with higher prices for the Future Shop stores in
> Quebec! The difference was not significant, maybe $1-2 on a $100 item,
> but the prices were higher in Montreal.
>
> My hubby's income increased by over 30% for the identical work, when
> he moved to Toronto. When factoring in the lower income and property
> taxes, he ended up with appropximately 40% more cash in his pocket.
>
> Cultural scene lacking? What a joke! With 4 theatres running
> Broadway-level shows and many international acts playing Toronto
> exclusively as their Canadian stops, the cultural scene is far more
> vibrant here than in Montreal. How many Broadway/London shows does
> Place des Arts host per year? One......two....?
>
> Montrealers still think that its city has the best restaurants? Check
> out the Zagat and Frohmer guides and see how many Montreal restaurants
> are listed.
>
> Sports? Well that's a joke too. Nordiques, Expos, Alouettes (once or
> twice?) Concordes........
>
> Toronto has a MLB team, an NBA team and contrary to Montrealer's
> beliefs, if the NFL was to come to Canada, I think we all know which
> city would get the franchise.
>
> For 30 straight years, the exodus from Montreal to Toronto has
> greartly exceeded the reverse. Montreal has higher poverty rates,
> higher unemployment rates, lower immigration rates, lower GNP, lower
> average incomes and far less multiculturalism (Toronto is the most
> multiculturally diverse city in North America).
>
> The only argument Montrealers tend to have these days is that Montreal
> "has a better night life". Firstly, I've been hearing that since the
> 60's and it's cliched by now and BS. Secondly, how does one measure
> the quality of a city's night life? You can't. And to be quite honest,
> in the grand scheme of things for over-25's, it's really not that
> important. Jobs, homes, schooling are the important issues in life not
> whether a city's bars are open until 1:00, 2:00 or 3:00AM.
>
> Language laws relaxed? They're racist! I continue to be disgusted by
> indoor signs in Quebec that have their English descriptions at half
> the size of the French equivalent....and it's the law! There are
> stores in Toronto that have signs exclusively in Chines, Phillipino,
> Arabic, etc. Freedom of expression is the law in North
> America.....excpet for Quebec, of course.
>
> If I move to Quebec from Spain with my wife and two 5 year olds, I am
> forced by law to enrol the kids in a French school, even if they speak
> English perfectly and not a single word of French! Racist!
>
> If I want my communications with the government in English, I have to
> request it in writing. The fact that documents can be printed in
> English on one side and in French on the other is irrelevent to the
> Quebec politicians. French it is.
>
> In 1993, the United Nations Human Rights Committee ruled that Quebec's
> sign laws broke an international covenant on civil and political
> rights. "A State may choose one or more official languages, the
> committee wrote, but it may not exclude outside the spheres of public
> life, the freedom to express oneself in a certain language.
>
> Reacting to these events, Robert Bourassa introduced Bill 86, which
> allowed English on outdoor commercial signs only if the French
> lettering was at least twice as large as the English.
>
> The fact that Quebec has been admonished by the United Nations should
> have made the feds in Ottawa cut off all payments to Quebec until
> these laws were reversed. But they're afraid of losing Quebec
> federalist voters.
>
> So, to be honest, I can't think of one good reason for a
> non-Francophone to live in Montreal. Sure, if someone has lived there
> all of his/her life and doesn't want to make a move, then by all means
> enjoy all that Montreal has to offer. but, in terms of economic,
> cultural and social benefits, there ain't no comparison.
>
> Having lived in Montreal for more than 1/2 of my life, I think I have
> a good perspective on the merits of the two cities.
>
> Roberta
>
> Whew....that was long one.
>
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance? 

The only population problem baseball had was that the French Canadians wised
up after the strike killed off their Expos chances of winning a world
series, and they walked away in droves.

Give em credit. They had the balls to walk away the first time...America
didnt
 >> Stay informed about: How did population decline affect Expos attendance?