O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee

In article <d3ram2piqf7l28qoc3qj312v50kt233201.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
Mr. PHP <mrphp.RemoveThis@planet.gong.rgi> wrote:

>http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles1121,0,3105555.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines
>
>...
>
>'It's believed the Orioles would offer as much as a six-year contract
>worth about $80 million to $90 million for Lee, 30. Though it would be
>a substantial commitment, it's not in the same neighborhood as the
>eight-year, $136 million contract that Alfonso Soriano signed with the
>Chicago Cubs.
>
>"I've had several discussions with the Orioles and they've been
>productive," said Lee's agent, Adam Katz.'
>...
>
>Please sign this guy!

He's the second best hitter on the market, but he's not some team savior.
He's 31 years old, and he's a good, not great, hitter. He'll definitely
help the team in the short run, and it's not like he's blocking a better
player, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking he's going to boost
the Orioles into contention.
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

On Nov 23, 4:48 am, Mr. PHP <m....RemoveThis@planet.gong.rgi> wrote:
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles1121,0,3105555...
>
> ...
>
> 'It's believed the Orioles would offer as much as a six-year contract
> worth about $80 million to $90 million for Lee, 30. Though it would be
> a substantial commitment, it's not in the same neighborhood as the
> eight-year, $136 million contract that Alfonso Soriano signed with the
> Chicago Cubs.
>
> "I've had several discussions with the Orioles and they've been
> productive," said Lee's agent, Adam Katz.'
> ...
>
> Please sign this guy!

They will trade Tejada if they sign him....hopefully for some starting
pitching.
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

David H. wrote:
>> > Please sign this guy!
>
> They will trade Tejada if they sign him....hopefully for some starting
> pitching.

What would signing Lee a LF have to do with trading Tejada a SS? They
would be filling one hole and opening another. Who would play SS.
Please don't tell me Brandon Fahey either. He's barely a decent utility
IF and I doubt he'll be in MLB in another couple of years.
It's laughable when they put him at an OF corner. He can't even hit
like a 2B man.
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

In article <1164316123.102058.238850.RemoveThis@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"danfergis" <danfergis.RemoveThis@netscape.net> wrote:
>David M. Nieporent wrote:

>> >Please sign this guy!

>> He's the second best hitter on the market, but he's not some team savior.
>> He's 31 years old, and he's a good, not great, hitter. He'll definitely
>> help the team in the short run, and it's not like he's blocking a better
>> player, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking he's going to boost
>> the Orioles into contention.

>No but he'll boost a putrid offense.

Moot point. The Orioles missed out on him. As usual.
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:48:36 -0500, "David M. Nieporent"
<nieporen.TakeThisOut@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

>In article <d3ram2piqf7l28qoc3qj312v50kt233201.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
> Mr. PHP <mrphp.TakeThisOut@planet.gong.rgi> wrote:
>
>>http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles1121,0,3105555.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines
>>
>>...
>>
>>'It's believed the Orioles would offer as much as a six-year contract
>>worth about $80 million to $90 million for Lee, 30. Though it would be
>>a substantial commitment, it's not in the same neighborhood as the
>>eight-year, $136 million contract that Alfonso Soriano signed with the
>>Chicago Cubs.
>>
>>"I've had several discussions with the Orioles and they've been
>>productive," said Lee's agent, Adam Katz.'
>>...
>>
>>Please sign this guy!
>
>He's the second best hitter on the market, but he's not some team savior.
>He's 31 years old, and he's a good, not great, hitter. He'll definitely
>help the team in the short run, and it's not like he's blocking a better
>player, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking he's going to boost
>the Orioles into contention.

No one has made that claim. He WOULD make the team better. Are you
trying to say that the O's should NOT try to sign him?
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

In article <nieporen-215994.06414625112006 DeleteThis @host170.octanews.net>,
David M. Nieporent <nieporen DeleteThis @alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
>In article <gs5gm2dnmgffj0adph7ijmiau12hd4e7ep DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
> Mr. PHP <mrphp DeleteThis @planet.gong.rgi> wrote:
>>"David M. Nieporent" <nieporen DeleteThis @alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
>>> Mr. PHP <mrphp DeleteThis @planet.gong.rgi> wrote:
>
>>>>http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles1121,0,3105555.story
>>>>...
>>>>'It's believed the Orioles would offer as much as a six-year contract
>>>>worth about $80 million to $90 million for Lee, 30. Though it would be
>>>>a substantial commitment, it's not in the same neighborhood as the
>>>>eight-year, $136 million contract that Alfonso Soriano signed with the
>>>>Chicago Cubs.
>>>>"I've had several discussions with the Orioles and they've been
>>>>productive," said Lee's agent, Adam Katz.'
>>>>...
>
>>>>Please sign this guy!
>
>>>He's the second best hitter on the market, but he's not some team savior.
>>>He's 31 years old, and he's a good, not great, hitter. He'll definitely
>>>help the team in the short run, and it's not like he's blocking a better
>>>player, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking he's going to boost
>>>the Orioles into contention.
>
>>No one has made that claim. He WOULD make the team better. Are you
>>trying to say that the O's should NOT try to sign him?
>
>Well, I'm not sure why you're posting this question _now_, given that Lee
>already signed with Houston.
>
>But I was trying to say what I said: he's not some team savior. He'd help
>the team in the short run, but he doesn't present a reason for excitement.
>Whether the Orioles signed Lee would have been irrelevant to the question
>of whether they contend.
>
>I don't object to making the team better in the short run; as long as doing
>so doesn't harm the team in the long run, 75 wins are better than 72 wins.
>But not better enough to get excited about. So I was pretty indifferent as
>to whether the Orioles signed him.

75 versus 72 still = out of contention by the end of May.

for my 2 cents' worth - put the $$ into scouting and signing talented kids.
What percentage of the A's (or Twins) rosters were FA's as compared with
players drafted/developed by their minor league systems? Unless you are
willing to spend like a Steinbrenner, you had damn well better be developing
your own players. That's why Markakis and Roberts are so valuable...

The O's are not very likely to be serious contenders next year, and
so (as has been pointed out many times already), there is (was) little
long-term advantage to a Lee; the O's are not one or 2 players away
from contenting - Mora's getting older (35 next season), so a third baseman
is going to be a need pretty soon; we still need a left fielder and a first
baseman - and pitching, both starting and in the bullpen (even though there
may be a world of talent in the young pitchers, there still isnt a lot to
show for it).

If I were spending Angelos' $$$ I would do my damndest to snag middle tier
talent for the short haul. Schmidt or Zito or Lilly won't be able to get
the O's into the 85-90 win bracket until the team's other needs are met, so
I try to trade Tejada to a team projected as contending, for 3 topnotch
prospects and sign a Julio Lugo-- maybe a step down this year, but a move
for 2008 and beyond. (Tejada wont ever be worth more than he is now, and to
paraphrase Branch Rickey, it is better to trade a player a year too soon
than a year too late.)

That and a lot of plane tickets to the Dominican Republic...


Cheers,

Mitch Edelman
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

In article <gs5gm2dnmgffj0adph7ijmiau12hd4e7ep.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
mrphp.TakeThisOut@planet.gong.rgi says...
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:48:36 -0500, "David M. Nieporent"
> <nieporen.TakeThisOut@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> >In article <d3ram2piqf7l28qoc3qj312v50kt233201.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
> > Mr. PHP <mrphp.TakeThisOut@planet.gong.rgi> wrote:
> >
> >>http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles1121,0,3105555.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines
> >>
> >>...
> >>
> >>'It's believed the Orioles would offer as much as a six-year contract
> >>worth about $80 million to $90 million for Lee, 30. Though it would be
> >>a substantial commitment, it's not in the same neighborhood as the
> >>eight-year, $136 million contract that Alfonso Soriano signed with the
> >>Chicago Cubs.
> >>
> >>"I've had several discussions with the Orioles and they've been
> >>productive," said Lee's agent, Adam Katz.'
> >>...
> >>
> >>Please sign this guy!
> >
> >He's the second best hitter on the market, but he's not some team savior.
> >He's 31 years old, and he's a good, not great, hitter. He'll definitely
> >help the team in the short run, and it's not like he's blocking a better
> >player, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking he's going to boost
> >the Orioles into contention.
>
> No one has made that claim. He WOULD make the team better. Are you
> trying to say that the O's should NOT try to sign him?

I am.

The goal of the Orioles should be to build a championship team,
not simply get better on a year-to-year basis. You're really
all about instant gratification, aren't you?

The 2007 season is *irrelevant* - it's essentially over before
the year 2006 is over.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan.TakeThisOut@baseballprimerREMOVE.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."

-Robert Schumann
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

In article <nieporen-A1E7C6.01243027112006
@host170.octanews.net>, nieporen.TakeThisOut@alumni.princeton.edu says...
> In article <MPG.1fd3c189cb3f6b139898db.TakeThisOut@news3.news.adelphia.net>,
> Dan Szymborski <dan.TakeThisOut@baseballprimer.com> wrote:
> >mrphp@planet.gong.rgi says...
> >> "David M. Nieporent" <nieporen.TakeThisOut@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> >He's the second best hitter on the market, but he's not some team savior.
> >> >He's 31 years old, and he's a good, not great, hitter. He'll definitely
> >> >help the team in the short run, and it's not like he's blocking a better
> >> >player, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking he's going to boost
> >> >the Orioles into contention.
>
> >> No one has made that claim. He WOULD make the team better. Are you
> >> trying to say that the O's should NOT try to sign him?
>
> >I am.
> >The goal of the Orioles should be to build a championship team,
> >not simply get better on a year-to-year basis. You're really
> >all about instant gratification, aren't you?
> >The 2007 season is *irrelevant* - it's essentially over before
> >the year 2006 is over.
>
> I wouldn't be quite as dogmatic about it as you, Dan. The 2007 season
> isn't "irrelevant"; we have to live through it for the next year, after
> all.

Well, MLB.TV and Extra Innings are excellent - don't have to
live through anything!

> Even if we're not going to contend, it's better to have more wins
> than fewer. (When you go to the park, you like to see a win, not a loss,
> no?) If we can do things to get us more short term wins WITHOUT
> SACRIFICING WINS DOWN THE ROAD, we should do it. Admittedly, that's
> tricky, for two reasons:
>
> 1) Because the things one does to get short term wins (trade prospects for
> veterans, trade draft picks for free agents, and play veterans over
> prospects who need to be developed) often directly hurt the long term; and
>
> 2) Because when teams get better, they sometimes get confused about what
> they need to do to take the next step. Jumping from 72 wins to 78 wins by
> signing free agents may delude a team to thinking they're on the right
> track, instead of realizing that the improvement is just temporary based on
> some quick-fix band-aids.

And as you know, David, money is one of those things that using
it now *does* sacrifice wins down the road. Angelos appears to
treat payroll as an expense, not an investment, so $90 million
going to Lee is $90 million that's not being used on getting the
team better in the future. Even these bunch of retards could
develop several Carlos Lees if they used that money to sign half
the teenagers in the Dominican Republic.

You pretty much have to go the dogmatic route with this team -
they're 4th out of 5 in probable spending and with the new
management in Tampa, 5th out of 5 in competence. Anything they
do has to be high-yield to have any value to them.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan.TakeThisOut@baseballprimerREMOVE.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."

-Robert Schumann
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

In <1164316123.102058.238850.RemoveThis@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, on 11/23/06
at 01:08 PM, "danfergis" <danfergis.RemoveThis@netscape.net> said:

>No but he'll boost a putrid offense. Of course the biggest boost the
>offense would get is the termination of Terry "I've never seen a pitch I
>wouldn't swing at" Crowley.
>He's easily the most over rated hitting coach in the business. His
>approach to hitting was never very good but these days it's easily 25
>years behind the times. He'll ruin a potential good hitter before he'll
>ever help a bad or average one.
>That whole "being aggressive" philosophy translates into "make outs to
>move runners to second and third."
>No matter how good or bad the pitching ever gets Baltimore just doesn't
>score runs.

Peter Schmuck likes Crowley - I've been unable to convince him that
Crowley's approach costs the Orioles runs (and wins.) I'm afraid Crowley
is going to screw up Markakis, who could be a high OBP, high average guy
if he's left alone.

Crowley seems to have a fear of strikeouts. Hitters who take a lot of
pitches may strike out a lot, in addition to walking a lot and hitting
well, and strikeouts apparently are taboo to Crowley. If a hitter puts
the ball in play before he gets two strikes on him, he avoids strikeouts.
He also avoids walks, and making the pitcher work.


Alan

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 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

In <1164772916.132927.144090.RemoveThis@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on 11/28/06
at 08:01 PM, "danfergis" <danfergis.RemoveThis@netscape.net> said:

>> Peter Schmuck likes Crowley - I've been unable to convince him that
>> Crowley's approach costs the Orioles runs (and wins.) I'm afraid Crowley
>> is going to screw up Markakis, who could be a high OBP, high average guy
>> if he's left alone.
>>
>> Crowley seems to have a fear of strikeouts. Hitters who take a lot of
>> pitches may strike out a lot, in addition to walking a lot and hitting
>> well, and strikeouts apparently are taboo to Crowley. If a hitter puts
>> the ball in play before he gets two strikes on him, he avoids strikeouts.
>> He also avoids walks, and making the pitcher work.

>The "Strikeouts are bad" syndrome permeates baseball. You'll often hear
>lousy announcers like Palmer and Joe Morgan shower praise on any popgun
>hitter that "Puts the ball in play." Doesn't matter if he made an out, if
>he got a runner over he's a hero. Never mind that if he drew a walk he
>would have not made an out.

Advancing the runner isn't a bad thing, but the intent of the hitter
should be to reach base, not just make a "productive out." Hitting behind
the runner is fine, but don't swing at a bad pitch to do it, as Earl said.


>In his book on straegy Weaver said the hardest thing to teach any hitter
>was that he didn't have to drive the runner in from third by swinging at
>a bad pitch. The job is to reach base. Sooner or later the pitcher has to
>throw a hitter's pitch.
>You're right. Guys who do go deep in the count will strikeout. He'll also
>make the pitcher work.

Exactly. That's the hitting approach of the Yankees and Red Sox, all
through their systems. It explains why the Yankees had a team OBP around
..360 this season, and only a couple of O's hitters were better than that
average (also explains why we were tenth in runs this season, and usually
are seventh or worse.) But Crowley is hitting coach for life. <sigh>

Perloozo should read that book. So should Crowley.

Alan

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 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee 

nobody DeleteThis @junk.min.net wrote:
> In <1164772916.132927.144090 DeleteThis @j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on 11/28/06
> at 08:01 PM, "danfergis" <danfergis DeleteThis @netscape.net> said:
>
> >> Peter Schmuck likes Crowley - I've been unable to convince him that
> >> Crowley's approach costs the Orioles runs (and wins.) I'm afraid Crowley
> >> is going to screw up Markakis, who could be a high OBP, high average guy
> >> if he's left alone.
>>
> Advancing the runner isn't a bad thing, but the intent of the hitter
> should be to reach base, not just make a "productive out." Hitting behind
> the runner is fine, but don't swing at a bad pitch to do it, as Earl said.
>

http://www.fantasyinfocentral.com/forums/rlink/rlink.php?url=http://ww...reak.co

Above is a nice little link where Earl Weaver rips into "team speed"
and tears Terry Crowley a "new one". He actually says "Terry Crowley is
F....ing lucky to be in baseball. he's been released by the Atlanta
Braves etc...."
It's great. Earl did not think a lot of team speed or "The Crow." I'm
certain he wouldn't be thrilled with "Mr. Little Ball" Sammy Perlozzo
who is just as bad as Mazzilli was with the bunting early in the game
with good hitters at the plate.

http://www.fantasyinfocentral.com/forums/rlink/rlink.php?url=http://ww...reak.co

I'll repeat the link hope it works for you. Don't play it in the same
room with little kids. It is a real profanity laced tirade.
 >> Stay informed about: O's trying to outbid Astros and Phils for Lee