memoirs of ron santo

Gary S. Simon wrote:
> In article <12udqhbssl6pc0a RemoveThis @corp.supernews.com>,
>
>> [Santo] was an above average fielder.
>
>
> Above average?
>
> He won five gold gloves. He may have been faster getting to a bunt
> as a fielder than he was running down the first base line as a hitter.

Not to mention that he could bare hand that bunted ball and throw it in
one motion to first while running in towards home plate.
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

Santo's throws to first on a bunt were picturesque! He was a good baserunner, team player and team leader. He was team captain when it meant "team leader".

The Don Young incident was intended to shake things up. Unfortunately, it is now well remembered along with the team's collapse.

Ron Santo was the most dominant hitting thirdbaseman of the 1960's and it is an aberration and shameful reflection on the voters and the game of baseball that he hasn't been inducted into the Hall of Fame.

QUESTION:

How many of you would take Bill Mazeroski or Ozzie Smith, Hall of Famers, on your team over Ron Santo?

GEO.
www.theLOCALfolks.com


"Frank Sereno" <fserenonospam RemoveThis @nospamsbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:L4HFh.3562$jx3.2600@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
: Gary S. Simon wrote:
: > In article <12udqhbssl6pc0a RemoveThis @corp.supernews.com>,
: >
: >> [Santo] was an above average fielder.
: >
: >
: > Above average?
: >
: > He won five gold gloves. He may have been faster getting to a bunt
: > as a fielder than he was running down the first base line as a hitter.
:
: Not to mention that he could bare hand that bunted ball and throw it in
: one motion to first while running in towards home plate.
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:37:25 GMT, "Gary S. Simon"
<garscosi.DeleteThis@thisisatypo.pipeline.com> gave us:
>In article <12udqhbssl6pc0a.DeleteThis@corp.supernews.com>,

>> [Santo] was an above average fielder.

> Above average?

> He won five gold gloves. He may have been faster getting to a bunt
>as a fielder than he was running down the first base line as a hitter.

What response would you have to the argument that Santo was too much
of a homer? Which is the argument that points out that he was a
296/383/522 hitter at home and 257/342/406 on the road. That which
points out that he had 216 homeruns at home and only 126 on the road?

--
Lance

Go St. Louis Cardinals!
2006 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS
National League Central Division Champions
1996, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006

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 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

"Winnemac Mike" <longlake DeleteThis @mc.net> wrote in message
news:12udqhbssl6pc0a@corp.supernews.com...
> He was a nine-time All Star. We Cubs fans voted early and voted often.

Well, not exactly. He was an All Star 4 times when the fans regained the
vote but 5 times when fans didn't vote due to the Reds ballot box stuffing
episode.
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

In article <evbhu2taous5ra49rm7ilkehsupnatj1l8 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
Lance Freezeland <freezelandlaw.nospam DeleteThis @consolidated.net> wrote:

> What response would you have to the argument that Santo was too much
> of a homer?


I believe that the OPS+ data at baseball-reference.com is adjusted
for ballpark effects.

Santo's career park-adjusted OPS+ was 125, with a four-season peak
(1964-67) of over 150.

Looking at two other top third basemen from the same era:

Brooks Robinson's career park-adjusted OPS+ was 104, with a four
season peak (1964-67) of about 130.

Ken Boyer's career park-adjusted OPS+ was 116 (1958-61) of about 130
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

"Gary S. Simon" <garscosi RemoveThis @thisisatypo.pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:garscosi-D9080F.19235204032007@news.west.earthlink.net...
> In article <evbhu2taous5ra49rm7ilkehsupnatj1l8 RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
> Lance Freezeland <freezelandlaw.nospam RemoveThis @consolidated.net> wrote:
>
>> What response would you have to the argument that Santo was too much
>> of a homer?
>
>
> I believe that the OPS+ data at baseball-reference.com is adjusted
> for ballpark effects.
>
> Santo's career park-adjusted OPS+ was 125, with a four-season peak
> (1964-67) of over 150.
>
> Looking at two other top third basemen from the same era:
>
> Brooks Robinson's career park-adjusted OPS+ was 104, with a four
> season peak (1964-67) of about 130.
>
> Ken Boyer's career park-adjusted OPS+ was 116 (1958-61) of about 130

Ken Boyer isn't in the Hall of Fame right?

Not that I agree with Lance, but I think Santo's best chances for the Hall
have passed him by.

Rightly or wrongly there are going to be third basemen who will eclipse his
numbers and make him even less of a candidate than he is now. I thought he
deserved it, but I can understand the arguements against him including the
cruelest one of all: that if he were voted in that would make 4 Cubs in the
Hall from teams that were also rans or even worse during the 60's and early
70's.
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

In article <52KGh.9177$Jl.1616@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"CyßerHoG®" <cyberhog.DeleteThis@hanginwiththehogs.com> wrote:


> Ken Boyer isn't in the Hall of Fame right?


No, he isn't.

Neither is Dick Allen (who played 3B for only a few years) but put up
awesome offensive numbers. His career park-adjusted OPS+ was 156 and he
had a streak of eleven seasons (1964-74) in which his _low_ was 145 and
his average was over 165.

OTOH, George Kell and Freddie Lindstrom have been enshrined by
previous Veteran's Committee, and




> I thought he
> deserved it, but I can understand the arguements against him including the
> cruelest one of all: that if he were voted in that would make 4 Cubs in the
> Hall from teams that were also rans or even worse during the 60's and early
> 70's.


FWVLIW, from 1962 on Ernie Banks was barely a shadow of the star he'd
been earlier in his career. I was shocked the first time I reviewed
the numbers. A two-time MVP shortstop (with a gold glove to his credit)
and an average park-adjusted OPS+ of 145 from 1955-61, Banks became a
first basement averaging 108 over the period 1962-69, before playing
less than half the season in 1970 and a quarter in 1971. I didn't pay
attention to major league baseball until 1962, but grew up thinking
Banks was a major star throughout the 1960's. That (like Dick Allen
not being in the Hall of Fame) says a lot about the importance of good
press.
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:47:05 -0800, Bubbamike_01 RemoveThis @yahoo.com gave us:
>On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:06:09 GMT, "CyßerHoG®"
><cyberhog RemoveThis @hanginwiththehogs.com> wrote:

>> there are going to be third basemen who will eclipse his
>>numbers and make him even less of a candidate than he is now.

>One of Santo's problems is that Mike Schmidt came along in '72. Mike
>may have been the best of all time and the memory of Santo, who may
>have been the best since the 1940's or '30s,(no matter what the
>Cardinal fan boi says) was overwhelmed by Schmidt's greatness.

I assume that you're making one of your poor references to me,
Gillman, but you're wrong. I am actually in favor of Santo making the
HOF. All I'm doing is pointing out the fact that it could very well
be his mediocre to poor road numbers that are keeping him out.

--
Lance

Created in 1926 by the Marching Illini, there is no
more stirring and dignified tradition on any college
campus than the Three In One. The symbol of Chief Illiniwek
embodies spirit, pride, and loyalty to this great university
in the most exciting four minutes in all of college athletics.
Here is the incomparable Three in One: http://tinyurl.com/3awuja

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 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo 

"Winnemac Mike" <longlake.RemoveThis@mc.net> wrote in message
news:12udqhbssl6pc0a@corp.supernews.com...
>I don't need to read the statistics on Ron Santo. I watched him on the
>Superstation most every day.
>
> He was a very good hitter. The late 60's and early 70's were a dead ball
> era. He hit near .300 in years where less than ten hitter over .300. He
> always hit 30 home runs in an era where the leaders were in the low 40's.
>
> He was an above average fielder. He did not have the best throw to first,
> but had a great throw to second and was always in good postion. They kept
> the grass high for him in WF, but although he took a long time to adjust
> to Astroturf.
>
> He could not run well. He may have led the league in GIDP.
>
> He was not a team player. Does anybody else remember the Don Young
> incident?
>
> He was a nine-time All Star. We Cubs fans voted early and voted often.
>
> He still should be in the HOF. BTW, do you Cubs fans remember HOF Dennis
> Eckersly?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: memoirs of ron santo