Greatest pitcher of all time?

Steveo wrote:
> "ziggy" <erickandsuzanneNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Steveo wrote:
>>> He's dead!
>>
>> well, that narrows it down a bit
>>
> I hope it closes this cross posted stink bait. :p

All bait is stinky.

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 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Road Warrior" <RoadWarrior DeleteThis @Consulting.nospam.us> wrote:
> Steveo wrote:
> > "ziggy" <erickandsuzanneNOSPAM DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Steveo wrote:
> >>> He's dead!
> >>
> >> well, that narrows it down a bit
> >>
> > I hope it closes this cross posted stink bait. :p
>
> All bait is stinky.
>
Specially if you have to exhume it.

--
Speaking out against anything corrupt or packed with lies. N Young
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

On 8/8/04 10:13 PM, in article cf6q5n01741 RemoveThis @drn.newsguy.com, "Brian Bigelow"
<Brian_member RemoveThis @newsguy.com> wrote:

> In article <o5uch09a5597s9h4p83gjinpdrppvmeffh RemoveThis @4ax.com>, Daniel Kolle says...
>
>>
>> Come on now, Jolly. Maddux is good, certainly, but not the greatest of
>> all time.
>
> I'd have to agree, but he's certainly got a better argument than Nolan Ryan,
> who
> was mentioned by someone else in this thread. Maddux is clearly top 10, I
> think, and I doubt Ryan's even top 20.
>
> --BDB
>

Well, you are stupid, then. Did you even consider trying to justify your
opinion? The guy threw SEVEN no-hitters.

Baseball-Reference.com has him listed as 8th.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml

FWIW, Maddux is listed as 15th.

Jayhawker
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 05:18:04 GMT, Jayhawker <rock.chalk.DeleteThis@jayhawks.net>
wrote:

>On 8/8/04 10:13 PM, in article cf6q5n01741.DeleteThis@drn.newsguy.com, "Brian Bigelow"
><Brian_member.DeleteThis@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <o5uch09a5597s9h4p83gjinpdrppvmeffh.DeleteThis@4ax.com>, Daniel Kolle says...
>>
>>>
>>> Come on now, Jolly. Maddux is good, certainly, but not the greatest of
>>> all time.
>>
>> I'd have to agree, but he's certainly got a better argument than Nolan Ryan,
>> who
>> was mentioned by someone else in this thread. Maddux is clearly top 10, I
>> think, and I doubt Ryan's even top 20.
>>
>> --BDB
>>
>
>Well, you are stupid, then. Did you even consider trying to justify your
>opinion? The guy threw SEVEN no-hitters.
>
>Baseball-Reference.com has him listed as 8th.
>
>http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml
>
>FWIW, Maddux is listed as 15th.

But the Hall of Fame Monitor is an attempt to see how likely somebody
is to make the Hall, not how deserving. As is made clear here
"http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor"

In terms of saying somebody is the greatest pitcher of all time,
preventing runs is the most important factor. The best measure in
terms of rate stat for that is probably ERA+ (at least the best
measure that's accessible at baseball-reference). Nolan Ryan is not
in the top 100 of all time for his career - and in fact is at 112 for
his score - i.e. he was 12% better than average during his career.
Good, but not all time great worthy. His best individual season was
the shortened season in 1981, when he had a score of 194 - ERA nearly
half of league average that year, adjusting for homepark. That is
good for a tie for 42nd in a single season.

Now, being 5th all time in innings does matter too - but he had an
enormous amount of somewhat above average innings. He struck out a
ton, could be dominating, but kept walking people and struggling when
men were on base (he was much worse pitching from the stretch than
from a windup). He did have the flashy stats like strikeouts and the
nohitters. He also is the career leader in walks and wild pitches,
and is 23rd in hrs allowed. And while he's a legend now, in his prime
he was never considered the best pitcher in the league.

For career value I'd probably go with Walter Johnson - 3rd all time in
innings pitched, and 3rd all time in ERA+. And with 4 seasons with
ERA+ over 200, pretty good peak too.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Steveo wrote:
>> All bait is stinky.
>>
> Specially if you have to exhume it.

That is how AKC spends their free time!

--
_____________________________________
Hotel sheets, rental cars, late flights, fast food.
What's not to love about consulting?!?!?
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Road Warrior" <RoadWarrior.RemoveThis@Consulting.nospam.us> wrote:
> Steveo wrote:
> >> All bait is stinky.
> >>
> > Specially if you have to exhume it.
>
> That is how AKC spends their free time!
>
You mean when they're not wearing their bib and knee pads.

--
Speaking out against anything corrupt or packed with lies. N Young
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

O excuse us, inferior specks such as we are, Your Divine Eminence...forgive
our misguided passion for these vain gladiatorial pursuits.

We tremble with gratitude that You have graced this forum with Your Holy
Presence, and we beseech You to guide our poor benighted souls into more
edifying areas of endeavor.

Actually, your screen name tells me everything I need to know about you, Mr.
Pontificating Pompous Ass, though you probably don't even know what "ex
cathedra" means or whence the phrase originates. As for the origin of
"speck-tater" sports, I suggest a bit of cursory research--they've been with
us continuously for several millenia.

If you're intent on belittling the cherished interests of other people, at
least have the guts to indicate some of the ways you choose to spend your
own free time. My guess is your private life wouldn't hold up any better
under objective scrutiny than mine or anyone else's here.


"ex_cathedra" <excathedra DeleteThis @eboxmail.net> wrote in message
news:a1928239.0408082223.15d42c3f@posting.google.com...
> Steveo <moparholic DeleteThis @hotmail-nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<20040808212205.734$n7@newsreader.com>...
> > "ziggy" <erickandsuzanneNOSPAM DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Steveo wrote:
> > > > He's dead!
> > >
> > > well, that narrows it down a bit
> > >
> > I hope it closes this cross posted stink bait. :p
>
> I could smell it all the way over here.
>
> Baseball "greats"
>
> They're the millionaire gladitorial heroes of the
> working class.
> They allow people to vicariously "win" as an escape from thier loozer
> lives.
> Without them...there would be no specks in the stadiums or >role mdels
> to worship for the tater tots.
>
> Whats speck-tater sports without specks?
>
> All big cities need herds of skillfull speck-taters to congratulate
> each other when the home team wins the big game for the gazllionare
> owners.
>
> Speck-tater sports came on the scene right after the Haymarket riots
> when the immigrant worker peasants got together drinking in bars
> discussing how the robber barons were taking advantage of them. They
> rebelled and got what we used to know as a 40 hr work week.
>
> So with the advent of speck-tater sports the masses
> now have the luxury of drinking in their speck-tater stadiums,and
> discussing the height and weight of thier favorite steriod pumped
> champion gladiators who battle for the working class.
>
> Our cubbies are champions for the same reason champion >dogs are
> champions.
>
> People LOVE to see an exqusitely fit animal fetch
> balls.
> You need to learn more about those cubbies!
> It will truly enrich your life when you learn how many balls they
> fetched in thier glorious adventures.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Jayhawker wrote:

> On 8/8/04 10:13 PM, in article cf6q5n01741.RemoveThis@drn.newsguy.com, "Brian Bigelow"
> <Brian_member.RemoveThis@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <o5uch09a5597s9h4p83gjinpdrppvmeffh.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, Daniel Kolle says...
>>
>>
>>>Come on now, Jolly. Maddux is good, certainly, but not the greatest of
>>>all time.
>>
>>I'd have to agree, but he's certainly got a better argument than Nolan Ryan,
>>who
>>was mentioned by someone else in this thread. Maddux is clearly top 10, I
>>think, and I doubt Ryan's even top 20.
>>
>>--BDB
>>
>
>
> Well, you are stupid, then. Did you even consider trying to justify your
> opinion? The guy threw SEVEN no-hitters.
>
> Baseball-Reference.com has him listed as 8th.
>
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml
>
> FWIW, Maddux is listed as 15th.
>
This is HOF Monitor listings. The HOF Monitor is a measure that
measures the likelihood of someone being inducted into the HOF. So what
it really measures is what sportswriters think of him. If you want to
argue that Peter Gammons, Harold Reynolds, Tim McCarver, et al think
that Ryan is better than Maddux then be my guest. And if you think that
this makes it true then you're more than welcome to your opinion.

If you look at the OTHER baseball-reference summaries you see
Measure Ryan Maddux
black ink 84 80
grey ink 251 297
HOF standards 55 61

so Maddux wins 2 of 3 and his career is still going on.

Obviously YMMV.

dick
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

>>
>> I'd have to agree, but he's certainly got a better argument than Nolan Ryan,
>> who
>> was mentioned by someone else in this thread. Maddux is clearly top 10, I
>> think, and I doubt Ryan's even top 20.

Jayhawker responded:

>Well, you are stupid, then.

Always a persuasive initial response.

>Did you even consider trying to justify your
>opinion?

Sure thing, wiseguy. See below.

>The guy threw SEVEN no-hitters.

Which tells us approximately jacksquat about his "greatness" (career and/or peak
value), other than seven (count 'em!!) individual games. Yes, it's a hell of an
impressive accomplishment. It's also window dressing. Hell, Bob Forsch threw
more no-hitters than Maddux.

>Baseball-Reference.com has him listed as 8th.
>
>http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml

Of course, the HOF monitor is based on cumulative stats, which
disproportionately rewards players for longevity (Ryan pitched, what--27
years?), and doesn't take into account that Maddux is still a productive
pitcher, and still accumulating career totals. (And, too, it doesn't attempt to
objectively measure "greatness"--rather, it measures accomplishments that have
historically led to HOF election.)

The most important thing a pitcher can do is keep his opponent from scoring
runs, and relative to their leagues, Maddux blows Ryan out of the water in that
area. His career ERA+ is 143; Ryan's is 112. Maddux's top 10 individual season
ERA+ figures: 273, 259, 191, 191, 171, 166, 162, 157, 155, 144. That 10th
figure would be Ryan's second best, in 27 seasons. Maddux had 15 consecutive
seasons with a higher ERA+ than Ryan's career figure. Ryan had exactly ONE
season (and that, the strike-shortened 1981) with a better ERA+ than Maddux has
*averaged* for his entire career. And Maddux has done this while ranking
among the league leaders in innings pitched virtually his entire career.
They're not even comparable.

Ryan is regarded as highly as he is because he pitched forever, had his most
effective seasons late in his career, and racked up a billion strikeouts. Those
are worthwhile accomplishments, and he's a worthy HOFer. He's also among the
most overrated players in baseball history. He doesn't even belong in a
discussion of the very greatest pitchers of all time. Maddux does.

--BDB
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

--plenty of good argumentation snipped--

Gee--I could've saved myself some legwork; you covered a lot of the same ground
as I did in my response.

I suppose if anyone warrants piling on, though, it's our friend Jayhawker.

--BDB
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 07:04:43 GMT, "Jeff Plas" <none.RemoveThis@spammer.bitch>
thought hard and said:

>Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for the
>greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in history,
>but also has more losses. Johnson?

Bingo!

--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Jayhawker" <rock.chalk.DeleteThis@jayhawks.net> wrote in message
news:BD3C733B.28665%rock.chalk@jayhawks.net...
> On 8/8/04 10:13 PM, in article cf6q5n01741.DeleteThis@drn.newsguy.com, "Brian
Bigelow"
> <Brian_member.DeleteThis@newsguy.com> wrote:
> > In article <o5uch09a5597s9h4p83gjinpdrppvmeffh.DeleteThis@4ax.com>, Daniel
Kolle says...

> >> Come on now, Jolly. Maddux is good, certainly, but not the
greatest of
> >> all time.

> > I'd have to agree, but he's certainly got a better argument than
Nolan Ryan,
> > who
> > was mentioned by someone else in this thread. Maddux is clearly
top 10, I
> > think, and I doubt Ryan's even top 20.

> Well, you are stupid, then. Did you even consider trying to justify
your
> opinion? The guy threw SEVEN no-hitters.

Yeah, well, Bob Forsch threw two no-hitters and Bob Gibson only threw
one, but I think we all know who was the better of those two pitchers,
don't we?

> Baseball-Reference.com has him listed as 8th.

> http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml

> FWIW, Maddux is listed as 15th.

But there's a difference between "likely to get into the HOF" and
"great". Just off the top of my head, I'd say Walter Johnson or
Christy Matthewson or Lefty Grove or Tom Seaver or a couple others
could all make better claims to that title than Ryan.

--
Lance

"I believe in the Church of Baseball" Annie Savoy
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time?