florida marlins rant with chicago references

Please continue to get on these owners, they knew the situation here
before they bought the team... they deserve the majority of the blame
for the situation they are in, its not like baseball is new to South
Florida this year! They are the problem, not the fans.

If they want more fans to go to the park they need to do TWO things 1)
provide a competitive team AND 2) provide a convenient and interesting
place to watch the games (e.g. domed stadium in a easy to
access/centrally located place). I think the latter might be more
important than the former. I think Huzinga had the right idea, build a
retractable domed stadium on the north east corner of 1-95 and broward
blvd. His current idea of a stadium next to joe robbie also is vastly
superior to a downtown Miami location.

In 2000, the Astros moved into their retro digs, the 42,000-seat Minute
Maid Park. The team's $25 average ticket price is the seventh-highest
in the majors, though it plays in the 11th largest market. Every game
is either sold out or close to it, which was not the case when the team
played in the Astrodome.

We all know what happened when Baltimore and Cleveland built new retro
stadiums, attendance went through the roof.

If they are not wiling to spend their own money to build a stadium,
their only choice is to sell the team back to a competent local owner
(huzinga perhaps) that is willing to put up his own money to finance a
stadium (as Joe Robbie did).

No other city is going to build these guys a stadium (Portland said no
public money, Las Vegas said we dont build casinos for other
businesses, why would we build a stadium for millionaires?, etc.) IF
there was a place the was going to build a stadium the expos would have
gone there instead of deal that provides Angelos with 70% of the TV
revenues. Right?

As Mark Cuban says "don't blame the customer when they don't come to
your games". Would anyone blame the customer if a restaurant didn't
attract enough customers?

These guys destroyed baseball in Montreal and they are gonna do it here
if we dont run them out of town. Unfortunately no one else wants them
either.

Do these knuckleheads really think they could do something that two
local smart business men (Huzinga/Henry) were unable to do? Did they
really think that they would get the city/county/state government to
build them a stadium after Huzinga and Henry failed? These guys ought
to realize they have no business acumen and get the hell out of
baseball and out of south florida.

Is there anything we can do? I guess the only thing we can do now is
not support the team at all. No TV ratings, no concession sales, no
attendance, etc. I say we/you organize a boycott. Maybe if we make it
completely unbearable for them they will agree to sell? I just wish
there was a minimum salary for a team. As it stands now they could
field a team of 25 all making the minimum, total salary would be
approximately $8 million. I am not sure what their tv contract and
luxury tax revenues are, could they be less than $8 million?

This strategy worked in Chicago, it forced a cheap owner (Wrigley) to
sell the cubs to the trib.

PS Chicago is another place where a winning baseball team does not
solve all attendance woes.

The cubs drew over 3 million and had a sub 500 team in 2005. The white
sox were in first place almost the entire year and won the world series
and drew only 2.3 million. The cubs filled their park to 98% of
capacity (total available seats/total attendance). If the Cubs had a
larger park their attendance would have been significantly higher. Many
dates were sell outs. The white sox (in a year in which they won the
world series) were only at 71% of capacity.

In 2005, the cubs radio share was 7.4 (first) the white sox 3.0 (12th).
In the 2005 playoffs the Sox's ALCS games averaged a 26.6 rating, the
Cubs averaged a 37.7 rating during their series with Florida in 2003.
The world series had one of lowest ratings ever in 2005, yet Fox scored
its highest ever NLCS with the cubs in 2003.

My point is, it takes more winning to generate attendance (winning of
course helps, but there are other things). It takes a fan friendly ball
park in a good location, (not a ball mall with a steep upper deck in a
poor neighborhood) with interesting pre and post game activities, it
takes an interesting team, if might take a likeable owner (Reinsdork is
hated in Chicago), it might take a fan friendly atmosphere (there are a
lot of fights at Comisery), it may take likable superstars, (the cubs
had sosa, sandburg, santo, jenkins, sutter, maddox, banks) the white
sox had the surly (Frank Thomas, Dick Allen), it may take a
superstation broadcasting games cross country, it may take a newspaper
owed by the same company (yet I see it bind over backwards to placate
white sox fans). My point, there are many things that contribute to a
successful franchise.

There is one thing that never works, blaming the fans or potential
customers. No business survives by alienating its customers.

I know some may say a boycott will only serve to remove these owners
from south florida, I say even if that is the worst case scenario, its
not so bad. They have no place take the marlins that offers more than
south florida, if they go, good ridance. This market will then be the
largest without a baseball team and unlike washington DC with Peter
Angelos' trouble, there will be nothing to stop the pirates or reds or
brewers or royals from relocating.

Does one really think that the south florida market would not be
attractive:

Local personal income, 2003
New York 926
Boston 315
Los Angeles 590
Philadelphia 245
Detroit 234
Dallas 226
Atlanta 203
Houston 196
Miami 195
San Francisco 376
Chicago 355
Washington-Baltimore 348
Minneapolis 171
Seattle 157
Cleveland 141
Denver 134
Phoenix 116
St. Louis 105
San Diego 105
Pittsburgh 93
Kansas City 77
Milwaukee 76
Tampa 76
Cincinnati 72

Largest TV Markets

1 New York 7,375,530
2 Los Angeles 5,536,430
3 Chicago 3,430,790
4. Philadelphia 2,925,560
5 Boston (Manchester) 2,375,310
6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose 2,355,740
7 Dallas-Ft. Worth 2,336,140
8 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) 2,252,550
9 Atlanta 2,097,220
10 Houston 1,938,670
11 Detroit 1,936,350
12 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) 1,710,400
13 Seattle-Tacoma 1,701,950
14 Phoenix (Prescott) 1,660,430
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul 1,652,940
16 Cleveland-Akron (Canton) 1,541,780
17 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale 1,522,960..........SOUTH FLORIDA PART 1
18 Denver 1,415,180 1.284
19 Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto 1,345,820
20 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 1,345,700 ...PHIL RODGERS CHOICE LOL
21 St. Louis 1,222,380
22 Pittsburgh 1,169,800
23 Portland, 1,099,890.... LESS THAN HALF THE SIZE OF SOUTH FLORIDA
24 Baltimore 1,089,220
25 Indianapolis 1,053,750
26 San Diego 1,026,160
27 Charlotte 1,020,130
28 Hartford & New Haven 1,013,350
29 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) 985,200
30 Nashville 927,500
31 Kansas City 903,540
32 Columbus, OH 890,770
33 Milwaukee 880,390
34 Cincinnati 880,190
35 Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And 815,460
36 Salt Lake City 810,830
37 San Antonio 760,410 ..YEAH SURE
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce 751,930.......SOUTH FLORIDA PART 2
39 Grand Rapids-Kalmzoo-
40 Birmingham (Ann, Tusc) 716,520
41 Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York 707,010
42 Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws 704,810
43 New Orleans 672,150
44 Memphis 657,670
45 Oklahoma City 655,400
46 Albuquerque-Santa Fe 653,680
47 Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem 652,000
48 Las Vegas 651,110 ....YEAH SURE.....

Las Vegas was the nation's fastest-growing metropolitan area in the
1990s in a union town with decent wages and relatively low
unemployment. As many as 200,000 visitors stroll down its Strip daily.

But there's no ballpark there to temporarily house a team, none on the
horizon and debates about how to fund it and where to locate it.

Influential Steve Wynn, founder of luxurious themed casino-hotel
complexes such as Bellagio, said he doesn't believe the casino industry
will help pay for a stadium.

"The fellows who would have to pay for it, the business community, they
don't think we need this," Wynn said on a Las Vegas talk show last
February.

Work hours an issue

Data and lifestyle thrust into doubt the region as a strong sports
market. Its 48th-ranked TV market would be the smallest in big league
baseball. Its minor league team draws fewer fans than the St. Paul
Saints.

A disproportionate number of casino employees work shifts at times when
a team would play its night games. And many of the 1.85 million
inhabitants are part-timers, spending winter months in Nevada, but the
baseball season at their homes in places such as Wisconsin and
Minnesota, Logan said.

"The real population base you can draw from is more like 800,000 to a
million people," Logan said. "That's not enough to sustain 81 games of
a major league season."

Competition for the discretionary dollar is so intense, Wynn described
the landscape as "entertainment overload."

Brian
I don't disagree with most of this but the Cubs were sold by the
Wrigley's for
TAX reasons when both parents died within a year of each other and the
family
could not pay estate tax but for that the Wrigley's would most likely
NOT have
sold them

Jesscia

boca brian wrote:
> Please continue to get on these owners, they knew the situation here
> before they bought the team... they deserve the majority of the blame
> for the situation they are in, its not like baseball is new to South
> Florida this year! They are the problem, not the fans.
>
> If they want more fans to go to the park they need to do TWO things 1)
> provide a competitive team AND 2) provide a convenient and interesting
> place to watch the games (e.g. domed stadium in a easy to
> access/centrally located place). I think the latter might be more
> important than the former. I think Huzinga had the right idea, build a
> retractable domed stadium on the north east corner of 1-95 and broward
> blvd. His current idea of a stadium next to joe robbie also is vastly
> superior to a downtown Miami location.
>
> In 2000, the Astros moved into their retro digs, the 42,000-seat Minute
> Maid Park. The team's $25 average ticket price is the seventh-highest
> in the majors, though it plays in the 11th largest market. Every game
> is either sold out or close to it, which was not the case when the team
> played in the Astrodome.
>
> We all know what happened when Baltimore and Cleveland built new retro
> stadiums, attendance went through the roof.
>
> If they are not wiling to spend their own money to build a stadium,
> their only choice is to sell the team back to a competent local owner
> (huzinga perhaps) that is willing to put up his own money to finance a
> stadium (as Joe Robbie did).
>
> No other city is going to build these guys a stadium (Portland said no
> public money, Las Vegas said we dont build casinos for other
> businesses, why would we build a stadium for millionaires?, etc.) IF
> there was a place the was going to build a stadium the expos would have
> gone there instead of deal that provides Angelos with 70% of the TV
> revenues. Right?
>
> As Mark Cuban says "don't blame the customer when they don't come to
> your games". Would anyone blame the customer if a restaurant didn't
> attract enough customers?
>
> These guys destroyed baseball in Montreal and they are gonna do it here
> if we dont run them out of town. Unfortunately no one else wants them
> either.
>
> Do these knuckleheads really think they could do something that two
> local smart business men (Huzinga/Henry) were unable to do? Did they
> really think that they would get the city/county/state government to
> build them a stadium after Huzinga and Henry failed? These guys ought
> to realize they have no business acumen and get the hell out of
> baseball and out of south florida.
>
> Is there anything we can do? I guess the only thing we can do now is
> not support the team at all. No TV ratings, no concession sales, no
> attendance, etc. I say we/you organize a boycott. Maybe if we make it
> completely unbearable for them they will agree to sell? I just wish
> there was a minimum salary for a team. As it stands now they could
> field a team of 25 all making the minimum, total salary would be
> approximately $8 million. I am not sure what their tv contract and
> luxury tax revenues are, could they be less than $8 million?
>
> This strategy worked in Chicago, it forced a cheap owner (Wrigley) to
> sell the cubs to the trib.
>
> PS Chicago is another place where a winning baseball team does not
> solve all attendance woes.
>
> The cubs drew over 3 million and had a sub 500 team in 2005. The white
> sox were in first place almost the entire year and won the world series
> and drew only 2.3 million. The cubs filled their park to 98% of
> capacity (total available seats/total attendance). If the Cubs had a
> larger park their attendance would have been significantly higher. Many
> dates were sell outs. The white sox (in a year in which they won the
> world series) were only at 71% of capacity.
>
> In 2005, the cubs radio share was 7.4 (first) the white sox 3.0 (12th).
> In the 2005 playoffs the Sox's ALCS games averaged a 26.6 rating, the
> Cubs averaged a 37.7 rating during their series with Florida in 2003.
> The world series had one of lowest ratings ever in 2005, yet Fox scored
> its highest ever NLCS with the cubs in 2003.
>
> My point is, it takes more winning to generate attendance (winning of
> course helps, but there are other things). It takes a fan friendly ball
> park in a good location, (not a ball mall with a steep upper deck in a
> poor neighborhood) with interesting pre and post game activities, it
> takes an interesting team, if might take a likeable owner (Reinsdork is
> hated in Chicago), it might take a fan friendly atmosphere (there are a
> lot of fights at Comisery), it may take likable superstars, (the cubs
> had sosa, sandburg, santo, jenkins, sutter, maddox, banks) the white
> sox had the surly (Frank Thomas, Dick Allen), it may take a
> superstation broadcasting games cross country, it may take a newspaper
> owed by the same company (yet I see it bind over backwards to placate
> white sox fans). My point, there are many things that contribute to a
> successful franchise.
>
> There is one thing that never works, blaming the fans or potential
> customers. No business survives by alienating its customers.
>
> I know some may say a boycott will only serve to remove these owners
> from south florida, I say even if that is the worst case scenario, its
> not so bad. They have no place take the marlins that offers more than
> south florida, if they go, good ridance. This market will then be the
> largest without a baseball team and unlike washington DC with Peter
> Angelos' trouble, there will be nothing to stop the pirates or reds or
> brewers or royals from relocating.
>
> Does one really think that the south florida market would not be
> attractive:
>
> Local personal income, 2003
> New York 926
> Boston 315
> Los Angeles 590
> Philadelphia 245
> Detroit 234
> Dallas 226
> Atlanta 203
> Houston 196
> Miami 195
> San Francisco 376
> Chicago 355
> Washington-Baltimore 348
> Minneapolis 171
> Seattle 157
> Cleveland 141
> Denver 134
> Phoenix 116
> St. Louis 105
> San Diego 105
> Pittsburgh 93
> Kansas City 77
> Milwaukee 76
> Tampa 76
> Cincinnati 72
>
> Largest TV Markets
>
> 1 New York 7,375,530
> 2 Los Angeles 5,536,430
> 3 Chicago 3,430,790
> 4. Philadelphia 2,925,560
> 5 Boston (Manchester) 2,375,310
> 6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose 2,355,740
> 7 Dallas-Ft. Worth 2,336,140
> 8 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) 2,252,550
> 9 Atlanta 2,097,220
> 10 Houston 1,938,670
> 11 Detroit 1,936,350
> 12 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) 1,710,400
> 13 Seattle-Tacoma 1,701,950
> 14 Phoenix (Prescott) 1,660,430
> 15 Minneapolis-St. Paul 1,652,940
> 16 Cleveland-Akron (Canton) 1,541,780
> 17 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale 1,522,960..........SOUTH FLORIDA PART 1
> 18 Denver 1,415,180 1.284
> 19 Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto 1,345,820
> 20 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 1,345,700 ...PHIL RODGERS CHOICE LOL
> 21 St. Louis 1,222,380
> 22 Pittsburgh 1,169,800
> 23 Portland, 1,099,890.... LESS THAN HALF THE SIZE OF SOUTH FLORIDA
> 24 Baltimore 1,089,220
> 25 Indianapolis 1,053,750
> 26 San Diego 1,026,160
> 27 Charlotte 1,020,130
> 28 Hartford & New Haven 1,013,350
> 29 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) 985,200
> 30 Nashville 927,500
> 31 Kansas City 903,540
> 32 Columbus, OH 890,770
> 33 Milwaukee 880,390
> 34 Cincinnati 880,190
> 35 Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And 815,460
> 36 Salt Lake City 810,830
> 37 San Antonio 760,410 ..YEAH SURE
> 38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce 751,930.......SOUTH FLORIDA PART 2
> 39 Grand Rapids-Kalmzoo-
> 40 Birmingham (Ann, Tusc) 716,520
> 41 Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York 707,010
> 42 Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws 704,810
> 43 New Orleans 672,150
> 44 Memphis 657,670
> 45 Oklahoma City 655,400
> 46 Albuquerque-Santa Fe 653,680
> 47 Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem 652,000
> 48 Las Vegas 651,110 ....YEAH SURE.....
>
> Las Vegas was the nation's fastest-growing metropolitan area in the
> 1990s in a union town with decent wages and relatively low
> unemployment. As many as 200,000 visitors stroll down its Strip daily.
>
> But there's no ballpark there to temporarily house a team, none on the
> horizon and debates about how to fund it and where to locate it.
>
> Influential Steve Wynn, founder of luxurious themed casino-hotel
> complexes such as Bellagio, said he doesn't believe the casino industry
> will help pay for a stadium.
>
> "The fellows who would have to pay for it, the business community, they
> don't think we need this," Wynn said on a Las Vegas talk show last
> February.
>
> Work hours an issue
>
> Data and lifestyle thrust into doubt the region as a strong sports
> market. Its 48th-ranked TV market would be the smallest in big league
> baseball. Its minor league team draws fewer fans than the St. Paul
> Saints.
>
> A disproportionate number of casino employees work shifts at times when
> a team would play its night games. And many of the 1.85 million
> inhabitants are part-timers, spending winter months in Nevada, but the
> baseball season at their homes in places such as Wisconsin and
> Minnesota, Logan said.
>
> "The real population base you can draw from is more like 800,000 to a
> million people," Logan said. "That's not enough to sustain 81 games of
> a major league season."
>
> Competition for the discretionary dollar is so intense, Wynn described
> the landscape as "entertainment overload."