Does anyone else think...

On Oct 23, 1:51 pm, FSogol <FSo....TakeThisOut@nospamplease.org> wrote:
> Brian Whiting wrote:
> > That you should get a save if you come in the 8th with 2 on and a three run
> > lead (clearly a save situation), but in the bottom of the 8th your team
> > scores 6 runs so you pitch the 9th with a 7 run lead?
>
> The saves rules have never made much sense to me.
>
> --
> FSogol

Most useless stat in baseball.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

"Brian Whiting" <CompAid DeleteThis @rcn.com> wrote in message
news:PLKdnapE1-3ihoPanZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
> That you should get a save if you come in the 8th with 2 on and a three
> run lead (clearly a save situation), but in the bottom of the 8th your
> team scores 6 runs so you pitch the 9th with a 7 run lead?
>

Yes, because had you blown the lead, your team may have not scored 6 runs
afterward.

One may even make the case that if the pitcher was then pulled at that point
and didn't finish the game, he may somewhat still deserve the save...Since
he left when the game was effectively (if not literally) over.

I almost like the save rule the way it is, but I think it should be adjusted
in the way I just mentioned as well as getting rid of the
3inningsyoufinishregardlessofthescoreyougetasave rule.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

"Marc-NS" <marcmelanson RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193170714.438439.256400@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 23, 1:51 pm, FSogol <FSo... RemoveThis @nospamplease.org> wrote:
>> Brian Whiting wrote:
>> > That you should get a save if you come in the 8th with 2 on and a three
>> > run
>> > lead (clearly a save situation), but in the bottom of the 8th your team
>> > scores 6 runs so you pitch the 9th with a 7 run lead?
>>
>> The saves rules have never made much sense to me.
>>
>> --
>> FSogol
>
> Most useless stat in baseball.
>

Don't forget the Win stat is a bit quirky too. If a closer blows a save in
say the top of the 9th and finishes the inning, and then his team comes back
in the bottom of the 9th to win HE gets the win. Even if the starter goes 8
2/3 perfect innings before he came in. I think that's pretty bogus.

In that situation either the starter should still get the win or nobody
should. Crediting the offensive player who knocks in the winning run in
that scenario with a win or save isn't a horrible idea either.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

"Andrewr1" <andyr1 RemoveThis @socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47259259$0$32476$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Brian Whiting" <CompAid RemoveThis @rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:PLKdnapE1-3ihoPanZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>> That you should get a save if you come in the 8th with 2 on and a three
>> run lead (clearly a save situation), but in the bottom of the 8th your
>> team scores 6 runs so you pitch the 9th with a 7 run lead?
>>
>
> Yes, because had you blown the lead, your team may have not scored 6 runs
> afterward.
>
> One may even make the case that if the pitcher was then pulled at that
> point and didn't finish the game, he may somewhat still deserve the
> save...Since he left when the game was effectively (if not literally)
> over.
>
> I almost like the save rule the way it is, but I think it should be
> adjusted in the way I just mentioned as well as getting rid of the
> 3inningsyoufinishregardlessofthescoreyougetasave rule.


Andrew,

In that situation, if Cleveland had scored three runs to blow the save, and
then Boston scored their 6 runs in the 8th, he wouldn't get a save, he'd get
the win. Once the score is tied, the pitcher of record gets the win when
the run scores to put one team ahead for good.

--
Brian J. Whiting
CompAid RemoveThis @rcn.com
Brian_Whiting_2006 RemoveThis @yahoo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

"Andrewr1" <andyr1 RemoveThis @socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:472593bd$0$25667$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Marc-NS" <marcmelanson RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1193170714.438439.256400@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Oct 23, 1:51 pm, FSogol <FSo... RemoveThis @nospamplease.org> wrote:
>>> Brian Whiting wrote:
>>> > That you should get a save if you come in the 8th with 2 on and a
>>> > three run
>>> > lead (clearly a save situation), but in the bottom of the 8th your
>>> > team
>>> > scores 6 runs so you pitch the 9th with a 7 run lead?
>>>
>>> The saves rules have never made much sense to me.
>>>
>>> --
>>> FSogol
>>
>> Most useless stat in baseball.
>>
>
> Don't forget the Win stat is a bit quirky too. If a closer blows a save
> in say the top of the 9th and finishes the inning, and then his team comes
> back in the bottom of the 9th to win HE gets the win. Even if the starter
> goes 8 2/3 perfect innings before he came in. I think that's pretty bogus.
>
> In that situation either the starter should still get the win or nobody
> should. Crediting the offensive player who knocks in the winning run in
> that scenario with a win or save isn't a horrible idea either.


When you have someone only used as a closer, you ideally want him to go 0-0
for the season. Any losses (obviously) are blown saves that you lose, and
any wins are blown saves that you win. I don't agree that a starting
pitcher should get the win if he doesn't end the inning that his team goes
ahead. There have been several times that a starting pitcher has done
wonderful but not gotten the win because of the offense this year and almost
unanimously, we all said "so and so deserved better". It's just a fact of
baseball. Also, you'd be suggesting that there was no winning pitcher.
That's never a good idea. In my opinion that would be like saying there was
no winning hit because of it being a broken bat single.

--
Brian J. Whiting
CompAid RemoveThis @rcn.com
Brian_Whiting_2006 RemoveThis @yahoo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

"Brian Whiting" <CompAid.DeleteThis@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:vbOdncFB_v_se7janZ2dnUVZ_tSknZ2d@rcn.net...
> "Andrewr1" <andyr1.DeleteThis@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:47259259$0$32476$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "Brian Whiting" <CompAid.DeleteThis@rcn.com> wrote in message
>> news:PLKdnapE1-3ihoPanZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>> That you should get a save if you come in the 8th with 2 on and a three
>>> run lead (clearly a save situation), but in the bottom of the 8th your
>>> team scores 6 runs so you pitch the 9th with a 7 run lead?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, because had you blown the lead, your team may have not scored 6 runs
>> afterward.
>>
>> One may even make the case that if the pitcher was then pulled at that
>> point and didn't finish the game, he may somewhat still deserve the
>> save...Since he left when the game was effectively (if not literally)
>> over.
>>
>
>
What I mean is that by the pitcher closing out the top of the 8th, he
maintained the momentum for his team. Had he somehow blown the lead, it is
probable that the Sox hitters would not have been feeling the same and would
not be facing the same situation as if they still had the lead. They may or
may not be even be facing the same pitcher. The Sox might have pressed and
not scored any.

> Andrew,
>
> In that situation, if Cleveland had scored three runs to blow the save,
> and then Boston scored their 6 runs in the 8th, he wouldn't get a save,
> he'd get the win. Once the score is tied, the pitcher of record gets the
> win when the run scores to put one team ahead for good.
>
> --
I know what the statistical rules are...I was just trying to say that maybe
the rules should be tweaked to be a little more realistic.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

>
> When you have someone only used as a closer, you ideally want him to go
> 0-0 for the season. Any losses (obviously) are blown saves that you lose,
> and any wins are blown saves that you win. I don't agree that a starting
> pitcher should get the win if he doesn't end the inning that his team goes
> ahead. There have been several times that a starting pitcher has done
> wonderful but not gotten the win because of the offense this year and
> almost unanimously, we all said "so and so deserved better". It's just a
> fact of baseball. Also, you'd be suggesting that there was no winning
> pitcher.

I know how the stats work and I know how saves, losses, and wins are
assigned and I know that you can break down closers stats. I know that the
baseball stat savy don't see a closers win total and assume that he deserved
all of them but I think the systems could use some improvement...

I half agree with you. I feel that the pitcher needs to leave with the lead
or finish the half inning before his team takes the lead. I just think that
he should also hang on to his victory under most circumstances if he leaves
with a lead and his team wins. A closer shouldn't get a win just because he
blew the lead and kept the score tied or within a certain deficit to allow
his team to come back. IMO he pitched ineffectively and doesn't deserve it.
If another pitcher comes in later and pitches extra innings and gets the win
then that reliever should get the win, but otherwise I think if a pitcher
pitches ineffectively (and blows the lead and only pitches for that one
inning) he shouldnt get anything besides a BS except maybe a loss.
Regardless of what his offense does.

> That's never a good idea. In my opinion that would be like saying there
> was no winning hit because of it being a broken bat single.
>
No, its not like saying that. You could at least make an argument that the
hitter knew what he was doing.
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

"Andrewr1" <andyr1 DeleteThis @socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4726d26c$0$25652$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>>
>> When you have someone only used as a closer, you ideally want him to go
>> 0-0 for the season. Any losses (obviously) are blown saves that you
>> lose, and any wins are blown saves that you win. I don't agree that a
>> starting pitcher should get the win if he doesn't end the inning that his
>> team goes ahead. There have been several times that a starting pitcher
>> has done wonderful but not gotten the win because of the offense this
>> year and almost unanimously, we all said "so and so deserved better".
>> It's just a fact of baseball. Also, you'd be suggesting that there was
>> no winning pitcher.
>
> I know how the stats work and I know how saves, losses, and wins are
> assigned and I know that you can break down closers stats. I know that
> the baseball stat savy don't see a closers win total and assume that he
> deserved all of them but I think the systems could use some improvement...
>
> I half agree with you. I feel that the pitcher needs to leave with the
> lead or finish the half inning before his team takes the lead. I just
> think that he should also hang on to his victory under most circumstances
> if he leaves with a lead and his team wins. A closer shouldn't get a win
> just because he blew the lead and kept the score tied or within a certain
> deficit to allow his team to come back. IMO he pitched ineffectively and
> doesn't deserve it. If another pitcher comes in later and pitches extra
> innings and gets the win then that reliever should get the win, but
> otherwise I think if a pitcher pitches ineffectively (and blows the lead
> and only pitches for that one inning) he shouldnt get anything besides a
> BS except maybe a loss. Regardless of what his offense does.


I agree with your ideas. Unfortunately, I don't see any way to invoke this
from a statistical point. I wouldn't agree with someone arbitrarily giving
wins and saves, but without the "human" factor looking and assessing, I'm
not sure we can get any better system.

--
Brian J. Whiting
CompAid DeleteThis @rcn.com
Brian_Whiting_2006 DeleteThis @yahoo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

"Andrewr1" <andyr1.TakeThisOut@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4726ce76$0$32563$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Brian Whiting" <CompAid.TakeThisOut@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:vbOdncFB_v_se7janZ2dnUVZ_tSknZ2d@rcn.net...
>> "Andrewr1" <andyr1.TakeThisOut@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:47259259$0$32476$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>
>>> "Brian Whiting" <CompAid.TakeThisOut@rcn.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PLKdnapE1-3ihoPanZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>>> That you should get a save if you come in the 8th with 2 on and a three
>>>> run lead (clearly a save situation), but in the bottom of the 8th your
>>>> team scores 6 runs so you pitch the 9th with a 7 run lead?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, because had you blown the lead, your team may have not scored 6
>>> runs afterward.
>>>
>>> One may even make the case that if the pitcher was then pulled at that
>>> point and didn't finish the game, he may somewhat still deserve the
>>> save...Since he left when the game was effectively (if not literally)
>>> over.
>>>
>>
>>
> What I mean is that by the pitcher closing out the top of the 8th, he
> maintained the momentum for his team. Had he somehow blown the lead, it
> is probable that the Sox hitters would not have been feeling the same and
> would not be facing the same situation as if they still had the lead.
> They may or may not be even be facing the same pitcher. The Sox might
> have pressed and not scored any.
>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> In that situation, if Cleveland had scored three runs to blow the save,
>> and then Boston scored their 6 runs in the 8th, he wouldn't get a save,
>> he'd get the win. Once the score is tied, the pitcher of record gets the
>> win when the run scores to put one team ahead for good.
>>
>> --
> I know what the statistical rules are...I was just trying to say that
> maybe the rules should be tweaked to be a little more realistic.
Hell, MLB can't even get the Umps to call strikes correctly and you think
they should ge into this?

And who else doesn't like motor mouth Tim McCarver?

ref
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think... 

rufref wrote:

>
> And who else doesn't like motor mouth Tim McCarver?
>

I like him better than Bob "Epic" Costas.
--
FSogol
 >> Stay informed about: Does anyone else think...