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What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.?

 
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Bob-Nob

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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 196



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:55 pm
Post subject: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.?
Archived from groups: alt>sports>baseball>bos-redsox (more info?)

I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
(which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
#2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
through the ASB...

#1:
best: Haren (OAK) 187 ERA+
worst: Loe (TEX) 85 ERA+
median ERA+: 131.5
Red Sox's #1: Beckett 130 ERA+ (ranks 8th in AL)
Yankees #1: Wang 127 ERA+ (ranks 9th)

#2:
best: DiNardo (OAK) 158 ERA+
worst: McCarthy (TEX) 80 ERA+
median ERA+: 117
Red Sox's #2: Matsuzaka 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)
Yankees #2: Clemens 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)

#3:
best: Gaudin (OAK) 149 ERA+
worst: Jackson (TB) 63 ERA+
median ERA+: 101
Red Sox's #3: Schilling 107 (ranks 4th)
Yankees #3: Pettitte 100 (ranks 8th)

#4:
best: Blanton (OAK) 131 ERA+
worst: Fossum (TB) 60 ERA+
median ERA+: 86
Red Sox's #4: Wakefield 102 ERA+ (ranks 2nd)
Yankees #4: Mussina 92 ERA+ (ranks 5th)

#5:
best: Kennedy (OAK) 97 ERA+
worst: Elarton (KC) 51 ERA+
median ERA+: 72
Red Sox's #5: Tavarez 90 ERA+ (tied for 2nd)
Yankees #5: Igawa 60 ERA+ (12th of 14, i.e., 3rd-worst)

Boy, those A's have a decent group of pitchers, hunh?

For comparison's sake, here's the above median ERA+s
(so far) again, and the 2006 median ERA+s...

2006 2007(so far)
median #1 122.5 131.5
median #2 106 117
median #3 100.5 101
median #4 92.5 86
median #5 78.5 72

The season's only half-over and I have a sneaking suspicion
that the medians on the extremes will tend to regress as
time goes by, but it still gives us a decent sense of what
the 'average' best, second-best, third-best (and so on) pitchers
are like for the American League, for whatever people think
that's worth.

Catch you later.
--Robert Machemer

--
Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | For each time he falls, he shall
Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!
IF22: Cliff wins best film, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha)
"Can't complain; had his chance, and in modern parlance, blew it."

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Lyford

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Since: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 30



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jul 9, 1:15 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote:
> "Bob-Nob" <bobno....TakeThisOut@SPaMol.com> wrote in message

> > Boy, those A's have a decent group of pitchers, hunh?
>
> Or maybe ERA+ isn't as good at adjusting for the ballpark
> as advertised.

Well, they've got a staff ERA of 3.87 on the road, only about 10%
higher than their home ERA of 3.52. Given that Boston's the only AL
team with a lower ERA than the A's road ERA, I think that it's fair to
suggest that "those A's have a decent group of pitchers..."

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Fred Burton

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Since: Jun 26, 2005
Posts: 1140



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:15 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Bob-Nob" <bobnob15 RemoveThis @SPaMol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns996866C2F8DDbobnob15aolcom@207.217.125.201...
>I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
> top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
> the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
> (which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
> ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
> #2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
> the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
> through the ASB...
>
> #1:
> best: Haren (OAK) 187 ERA+
> worst: Loe (TEX) 85 ERA+
> median ERA+: 131.5
> Red Sox's #1: Beckett 130 ERA+ (ranks 8th in AL)
> Yankees #1: Wang 127 ERA+ (ranks 9th)
>
> #2:
> best: DiNardo (OAK) 158 ERA+
> worst: McCarthy (TEX) 80 ERA+
> median ERA+: 117
> Red Sox's #2: Matsuzaka 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)
> Yankees #2: Clemens 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)
>
> #3:
> best: Gaudin (OAK) 149 ERA+
> worst: Jackson (TB) 63 ERA+
> median ERA+: 101
> Red Sox's #3: Schilling 107 (ranks 4th)
> Yankees #3: Pettitte 100 (ranks 8th)
>
> #4:
> best: Blanton (OAK) 131 ERA+
> worst: Fossum (TB) 60 ERA+
> median ERA+: 86
> Red Sox's #4: Wakefield 102 ERA+ (ranks 2nd)
> Yankees #4: Mussina 92 ERA+ (ranks 5th)
>
> #5:
> best: Kennedy (OAK) 97 ERA+
> worst: Elarton (KC) 51 ERA+
> median ERA+: 72
> Red Sox's #5: Tavarez 90 ERA+ (tied for 2nd)
> Yankees #5: Igawa 60 ERA+ (12th of 14, i.e., 3rd-worst)
>
> Boy, those A's have a decent group of pitchers, hunh?

Or maybe ERA+ isn't as good at adjusting for the ballpark
as advertised.
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McDuck

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Since: Jul 06, 2007
Posts: 91



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:06:08 GMT, "Bob-Nob" <bobnob15.TakeThisOut@SPaMol.com>
wrote:

>I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
>top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
>the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
>(which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
>ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
>#2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
>the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
>through the ASB...
Terrific post. The only one I guess right on is Tavarez. Odd that
Clemens could be high with his small number of appearances. He has
pitched v. well for a guy with only 2 wins.
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Bob-Nob

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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 196



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

McDuck venit, vidit, et dixit:
> "Bob-Nob" <bobnob15.TakeThisOut@SPaMol.com> wrote:

>> I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
>> top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
>> the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
>> (which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
>> ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
>> #2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
>> the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
>> through the ASB...

<apparent snip>

> Terrific post. The only one I guess right on is Tavarez. Odd that
> Clemens could be high with his small number of appearances. He has
> pitched v. well for a guy with only 2 wins.

In case you're misunderstanding me, I was "ranking" guys by ERA+
(among the top five starters for every team). Thus, Clemens could
rank second by being better (per appearance) than Mussina, Igawa,
and Pettitte (which is not nearly so hard to do as it sounds --
Wakefield could say the same).

If one really wanted to rank the starters in such a way that
Clemens (probably) wouldn't rank second for the Yankees, one
could rank every pitcher by (say) VORP (or whatever), which
would incorporate both quality and quantity. That might well
be a better way of ranking the pitchers, except that (offhand)
it'd take a lot more work than what I did.

On the other hand, I also think that "pitched like a #2 starter"
tends to be more a statement of quality. Bret Saberhagen, say,
pitched like a #1 starter when he was healthy. (Actually, he
may no have -- I'm just using him as a theoretical example).
Sure, when he wasn't healthy, it didn't do anyone a bit of good,
but when he was healthy he was (theoretically) a second #1 pitcher
(or not, if he wasn't). I think that fits more with my understanding
of how "(When everyone is healthy), the Red Sox have three #1s"
tends to be used. Your mileage may vary.

Catch you later.
--Robert Machemer

--
Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | For each time he falls, he shall
Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!
IF22: Cliff wins best film, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha)
"Can't complain; had his chance, and in modern parlance, blew it."
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Srgnt Billko

External


Since: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 385



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Bob-Nob" <bobnob15.DeleteThis@SPaMol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns996866C2F8DDbobnob15aolcom@207.217.125.201...
>I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
> top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
> the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
> (which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
> ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
> #2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
> the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
> through the ASB...
>
> #1:
> best: Haren (OAK) 187 ERA+
> worst: Loe (TEX) 85 ERA+
> median ERA+: 131.5
> Red Sox's #1: Beckett 130 ERA+ (ranks 8th in AL)
> Yankees #1: Wang 127 ERA+ (ranks 9th)
>
> #2:
> best: DiNardo (OAK) 158 ERA+
> worst: McCarthy (TEX) 80 ERA+
> median ERA+: 117
> Red Sox's #2: Matsuzaka 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)
> Yankees #2: Clemens 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)
>
> #3:
> best: Gaudin (OAK) 149 ERA+
> worst: Jackson (TB) 63 ERA+
> median ERA+: 101
> Red Sox's #3: Schilling 107 (ranks 4th)
> Yankees #3: Pettitte 100 (ranks 8th)
>
> #4:
> best: Blanton (OAK) 131 ERA+
> worst: Fossum (TB) 60 ERA+
> median ERA+: 86
> Red Sox's #4: Wakefield 102 ERA+ (ranks 2nd)
> Yankees #4: Mussina 92 ERA+ (ranks 5th)
>
> #5:
> best: Kennedy (OAK) 97 ERA+
> worst: Elarton (KC) 51 ERA+
> median ERA+: 72
> Red Sox's #5: Tavarez 90 ERA+ (tied for 2nd)
> Yankees #5: Igawa 60 ERA+ (12th of 14, i.e., 3rd-worst)
>
> Boy, those A's have a decent group of pitchers, hunh?
>
> For comparison's sake, here's the above median ERA+s
> (so far) again, and the 2006 median ERA+s...
>
> 2006 2007(so far)
> median #1 122.5 131.5
> median #2 106 117
> median #3 100.5 101
> median #4 92.5 86
> median #5 78.5 72
>
> The season's only half-over and I have a sneaking suspicion
> that the medians on the extremes will tend to regress as
> time goes by, but it still gives us a decent sense of what
> the 'average' best, second-best, third-best (and so on) pitchers
> are like for the American League, for whatever people think
> that's worth.
>
> Catch you later.
> --Robert Machemer

Around here a #1 is usually pee - and #2 ...
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McDuck

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Since: Jul 06, 2007
Posts: 91



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:40 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:33:59 GMT, "Bob-Nob" <bobnob15 RemoveThis @SPaMol.com>
wrote:

>McDuck venit, vidit, et dixit:
>> "Bob-Nob" <bobnob15 RemoveThis @SPaMol.com> wrote:
>
>>> I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
>>> top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
>>> the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
>>> (which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
>>> ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
>>> #2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
>>> the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
>>> through the ASB...
>
><apparent snip>
>

It is your view that one should mark <snip> when text ***after*** a
comment is omitted? What is the point of that? In any event, by your
logic, your <apparent snip> is misplaced --- it should come after my
comment, not before..

And why is it an "apparent snip" --- did you forget what you wrote?
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Bob-Nob

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Since: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 196



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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McDuck venit, vidit, et dixit:
> "Bob-Nob" <bobnob15 DeleteThis @SPaMol.com> wrote:
>> McDuck venit, vidit, et dixit:
>>> "Bob-Nob" <bobnob15 DeleteThis @SPaMol.com> wrote:

>>>> I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
>>>> top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
>>>> the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
>>>> (which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
>>>> ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
>>>> #2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
>>>> the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
>>>> through the ASB...

>> <apparent snip>

> It is your view that one should mark <snip> when text ***after*** a
> comment is omitted? What is the point of that? In any event, by your
> logic, your <apparent snip> is misplaced --- it should come after my
> comment, not before..

> And why is it an "apparent snip" --- did you forget what you wrote?

I don't follow some hard-and-fast rules about these sorts of things,
I just try to communicate what's going on. You'd snipped the data
I'd posted (and there's nothing wrong with that, of course), but
were referring at least obliquely to it; I wanted to communicate that
the information had been there and had been snipped. Basically, I
use "snip" to indicate stuff I've snipped and "apparent snip" to
refer to stuff that someone else snipped (and to which they seemed to
be referring in their post). In fact, most of the time, I use
"apparent snip" when people snip attribution of posts which they
include in their reply.

If I remember correctly, your post referred to 'guessing correctly
about Tavarez' (or something like that) and being 'surprised by
Clemens' (or thereabouts). I wanted to communicate that you'd
snipped the information concerning those two pitchers. That's all.
My apologies if my doing so rubbed you the wrong way -- it was not
my intention to offend. Seriously, my bad, McDuck.

Catch you later.
--Robert Machemer


--
Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | For each time he falls, he shall
Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!
IF22: Cliff wins best film, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha)
"Can't complain; had his chance, and in modern parlance, blew it."
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OceanView

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Since: Aug 24, 2004
Posts: 408



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:33 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Srgnt Billko" <frrt.TakeThisOut@blipl.net> wrote in news:OOyki.160571$Sa4.104371
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Around here a #1 is usually pee - and #2 ...
>

#2 would be Piniero

--
-------
Say it loud
http://tinyurl.com/39rhxa
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LeeHarris

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Since: Jun 04, 2007
Posts: 11



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 9 Jul, 18:06, "Bob-Nob" <bobno....RemoveThis@SPaMol.com> wrote:
> I went through the bb-ref pages for each team, identified the
> top five starters (by games started, using innings pitched as
> the tie-breaker), and then ranked each group of five by ERA+
> (which adjusts for league and park). The pitcher with the best
> ERA+ was considered to be the #1 starter, the second-best the
> #2, and so on. I then grouped all the #1 starters together, all
> the #2 starters together, and so on. Here are the results
> through the ASB...
>
> #1:
> best: Haren (OAK) 187 ERA+
> worst: Loe (TEX) 85 ERA+
> median ERA+: 131.5
> Red Sox's #1: Beckett 130 ERA+ (ranks 8th in AL)
> Yankees #1: Wang 127 ERA+ (ranks 9th)
>
> #2:
> best: DiNardo (OAK) 158 ERA+
> worst: McCarthy (TEX) 80 ERA+
> median ERA+: 117
> Red Sox's #2: Matsuzaka 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)
> Yankees #2: Clemens 117 ERA+ (tied for 7th)
>
> #3:
> best: Gaudin (OAK) 149 ERA+
> worst: Jackson (TB) 63 ERA+
> median ERA+: 101
> Red Sox's #3: Schilling 107 (ranks 4th)
> Yankees #3: Pettitte 100 (ranks 8th)
>
> #4:
> best: Blanton (OAK) 131 ERA+
> worst: Fossum (TB) 60 ERA+
> median ERA+: 86
> Red Sox's #4: Wakefield 102 ERA+ (ranks 2nd)
> Yankees #4: Mussina 92 ERA+ (ranks 5th)
>
> #5:
> best: Kennedy (OAK) 97 ERA+
> worst: Elarton (KC) 51 ERA+
> median ERA+: 72
> Red Sox's #5: Tavarez 90 ERA+ (tied for 2nd)
> Yankees #5: Igawa 60 ERA+ (12th of 14, i.e., 3rd-worst)
>
> Boy, those A's have a decent group of pitchers, hunh?
>
> For comparison's sake, here's the above median ERA+s
> (so far) again, and the 2006 median ERA+s...
>
> 2006 2007(so far)
> median #1 122.5 131.5
> median #2 106 117
> median #3 100.5 101
> median #4 92.5 86
> median #5 78.5 72
>
> The season's only half-over and I have a sneaking suspicion
> that the medians on the extremes will tend to regress as
> time goes by, but it still gives us a decent sense of what
> the 'average' best, second-best, third-best (and so on) pitchers
> are like for the American League, for whatever people think
> that's worth.
>
> Catch you later.
> --Robert Machemer
>
> --
> Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | For each time he falls, he shall
> Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!
> IF22: Cliff wins best film, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha)
> "Can't complain; had his chance, and in modern parlance, blew it."


Thanks for this Bob.
I am absolutely AMAZED that the "median" pitching line for 1,2 and 3
starters is so high, and that the Sox appear to be just average in
that regard. Subjectively I find it hard to believe that Beckett isn't
better than 8th in #1 pitchers in the AL. Matsuzaka after a rough
start is probably better too. Who would have imagined that the biggest
edge we have is in 4/5 with Wakefield and Tavarez!!!! I bet our
bullpen looks pretty decent though.
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Pearly Soames

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Since: Jun 14, 2007
Posts: 105



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: What is a #1, a #2, a #3, etc.? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Srgnt Billko wrote:

>
> Around here a #1 is usually pee - and #2 ...
>

....is when you hit <send>.
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