bonds and selig

<<I disagree. I think that Selig should stay away. I absolutely do NOT
buy into this bogus argument that the commish has to be there when
Bonds breaks the record. If he feels that Bonds was juicing, then Seling
should stay away to show MLB's official disgust with Bonds. >>

If he thinks Bonds was cheating, then he needs to either come up with some
proof and suspend him or STFU. And while he's at it, why doesn't he take
some sort of action against everybody else who he suspects of circumventing
the rules. So far, the only high-profile guy who has actually been caught
with his pants down is Rafael Palmiero.

I understand that there is a dark cloud hanging over Bonds but so far,
that's all it is: a cloud. That and the fact that Bonds is a douchebag.
I can fully sympathize with Hank Aaron when he expresses no interest in
being there when Bonds breaks his record. And he has no obligation to be
there. But Selig is the Commissioner of Baseball and, in that official
capacity, ought to be present whenever something momentous in the history of
the sport takes place. If he was not able to drum Bonds out of the game
before he got around to breaking Aaron's record, then he needs to man up and
be there.

Lee


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

On Jul 9, 7:55 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote:
> "Lee Gordon" <bucketofs....DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:Qtidnex_ltAbMw_bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > <<I disagree. I think that Selig should stay away. I absolutely do NOT
> > buy into this bogus argument that the commish has to be there when
> > Bonds breaks the record. If he feels that Bonds was juicing, then Seling
> > should stay away to show MLB's official disgust with Bonds. >>
>
> > If he thinks Bonds was cheating, then he needs to either come up with some
> > proof and suspend him or STFU. And while he's at it, why doesn't he take
> > some sort of action against everybody else who he suspects of
> > circumventing
> > the rules. So far, the only high-profile guy who has actually been caught
> > with his pants down is Rafael Palmiero.
>
> > I understand that there is a dark cloud hanging over Bonds but so far,
> > that's all it is: a cloud. That and the fact that Bonds is a douchebag.
> > I can fully sympathize with Hank Aaron when he expresses no interest in
> > being there when Bonds breaks his record. And he has no obligation to be
> > there. But Selig is the Commissioner of Baseball and, in that official
> > capacity, ought to be present whenever something momentous in the history
> > of
> > the sport takes place. If he was not able to drum Bonds out of the game
> > before he got around to breaking Aaron's record, then he needs to man up
> > and
> > be there.
>
> > Lee
>
> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that you
> have to
> have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no right to be
> worshipped
> by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned, unless Bonds can prove
> himself
> not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no right to expect us to treat him in
> the same
> way as Hank Aaron.
>
> And before anyone says that that isn't the standard of guilt in the US, I'd
> say that
> we're not in a legal court, but the court of public opinion. And in THAT
> court,
> we each have every right to set whatever standard of guilt or innocence that
> we
> so choose. And if the commissioner of baseball doesn't feel right about
> honoring
> Bonds, then I haven't the slightest problem with Selig shunning Bonds and
> refusing
> to honor him with his presense. I know that I won't be watching any TV
> coverage
> of Bonds hitting 755.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There you go, guilty before proven innocent.
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

On Jul 9, 10:29 pm, "Dano" <janeandd... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Nolan Patrick" <CallThatG... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1184041201.478776.68490@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 9, 7:55 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur... RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote:
> >> "Lee Gordon" <bucketofs... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:Qtidnex_ltAbMw_bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> >> > <<I disagree. I think that Selig should stay away. I absolutely do
> >> > NOT
> >> > buy into this bogus argument that the commish has to be there when
> >> > Bonds breaks the record. If he feels that Bonds was juicing, then
> >> > Seling
> >> > should stay away to show MLB's official disgust with Bonds. >>
>
> >> > If he thinks Bonds was cheating, then he needs to either come up with
> >> > some
> >> > proof and suspend him or STFU. And while he's at it, why doesn't he
> >> > take
> >> > some sort of action against everybody else who he suspects of
> >> > circumventing
> >> > the rules. So far, the only high-profile guy who has actually been
> >> > caught
> >> > with his pants down is Rafael Palmiero.
>
> >> > I understand that there is a dark cloud hanging over Bonds but so far,
> >> > that's all it is: a cloud. That and the fact that Bonds is a
> >> > douchebag.
> >> > I can fully sympathize with Hank Aaron when he expresses no interest in
> >> > being there when Bonds breaks his record. And he has no obligation to
> >> > be
> >> > there. But Selig is the Commissioner of Baseball and, in that official
> >> > capacity, ought to be present whenever something momentous in the
> >> > history
> >> > of
> >> > the sport takes place. If he was not able to drum Bonds out of the
> >> > game
> >> > before he got around to breaking Aaron's record, then he needs to man
> >> > up
> >> > and
> >> > be there.
>
> >> > Lee
>
> >> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that
> >> you
> >> have to
> >> have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no right to be
> >> worshipped
> >> by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned, unless Bonds can prove
> >> himself
> >> not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no right to expect us to treat him in
> >> the same
> >> way as Hank Aaron.
>
> >> And before anyone says that that isn't the standard of guilt in the US,
> >> I'd
> >> say that
> >> we're not in a legal court, but the court of public opinion. And in THAT
> >> court,
> >> we each have every right to set whatever standard of guilt or innocence
> >> that
> >> we
> >> so choose. And if the commissioner of baseball doesn't feel right about
> >> honoring
> >> Bonds, then I haven't the slightest problem with Selig shunning Bonds and
> >> refusing
> >> to honor him with his presense. I know that I won't be watching any TV
> >> coverage
> >> of Bonds hitting 755.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > There you go, guilty before proven innocent.
>
> Yeah...just like poor OJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bonds and OJ, yeah they are comparable. That Barry Bonds, if he just
wasn't so good, I wouldn't have to hate him so much.
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

"Lee Gordon" <bucketofspam.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Qtidnex_ltAbMw_bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com...
> <<I disagree. I think that Selig should stay away. I absolutely do NOT
> buy into this bogus argument that the commish has to be there when
> Bonds breaks the record. If he feels that Bonds was juicing, then Seling
> should stay away to show MLB's official disgust with Bonds. >>
>
> If he thinks Bonds was cheating, then he needs to either come up with some
> proof and suspend him or STFU. And while he's at it, why doesn't he take
> some sort of action against everybody else who he suspects of
> circumventing
> the rules. So far, the only high-profile guy who has actually been caught
> with his pants down is Rafael Palmiero.
>
> I understand that there is a dark cloud hanging over Bonds but so far,
> that's all it is: a cloud. That and the fact that Bonds is a douchebag.
> I can fully sympathize with Hank Aaron when he expresses no interest in
> being there when Bonds breaks his record. And he has no obligation to be
> there. But Selig is the Commissioner of Baseball and, in that official
> capacity, ought to be present whenever something momentous in the history
> of
> the sport takes place. If he was not able to drum Bonds out of the game
> before he got around to breaking Aaron's record, then he needs to man up
> and
> be there.
>
> Lee


The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that you
have to
have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no right to be
worshipped
by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned, unless Bonds can prove
himself
not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no right to expect us to treat him in
the same
way as Hank Aaron.

And before anyone says that that isn't the standard of guilt in the US, I'd
say that
we're not in a legal court, but the court of public opinion. And in THAT
court,
we each have every right to set whatever standard of guilt or innocence that
we
so choose. And if the commissioner of baseball doesn't feel right about
honoring
Bonds, then I haven't the slightest problem with Selig shunning Bonds and
refusing
to honor him with his presense. I know that I won't be watching any TV
coverage
of Bonds hitting 755.
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:f6uou7$13hj$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that you
> have to
> have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no right to be
> worshipped
> by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned, unless Bonds can prove
> himself
> not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no right to expect us to treat him in
> the same
> way as Hank Aaron.
>
> And before anyone says that that isn't the standard of guilt in the US,
I'd
> say that
> we're not in a legal court, but the court of public opinion. And in THAT
> court,
> we each have every right to set whatever standard of guilt or innocence
that
> we
> so choose. And if the commissioner of baseball doesn't feel right about
> honoring
> Bonds, then I haven't the slightest problem with Selig shunning Bonds and
> refusing
> to honor him with his presense. I know that I won't be watching any TV
> coverage
> of Bonds hitting 755.

MLB{meaning selig and the other owners} all knew about steroids and drugs.
they were the ones supplying them half the time.
seligs outrage is on par with claude rains in casablanca "gambling here? i'm
shocked!"
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

Ray wrote: <MLB {meaning selig and the other owners} all knew about
steroids and drugs. they were the ones supplying them half the time.>

Knowing about steroid use and claiming they supplied is a pretty big
jump, Ray.
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

"Lee Gordon" <bucketofspam.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in
news:Qtidnex_ltAbMw_bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com:

> <<I disagree. I think that Selig should stay away. I absolutely do NOT
> buy into this bogus argument that the commish has to be there when
> Bonds breaks the record. If he feels that Bonds was juicing, then
> Seling should stay away to show MLB's official disgust with Bonds. >>
>
> If he thinks Bonds was cheating, then he needs to either come up with
> some proof and suspend him or STFU. And while he's at it, why doesn't
> he take some sort of action against everybody else who he suspects of
> circumventing the rules. So far, the only high-profile guy who has
> actually been caught with his pants down is Rafael Palmiero.
>
> I understand that there is a dark cloud hanging over Bonds but so far,
> that's all it is: a cloud. That and the fact that Bonds is a
> douchebag. I can fully sympathize with Hank Aaron when he expresses no
> interest in being there when Bonds breaks his record. And he has no
> obligation to be there. But Selig is the Commissioner of Baseball and,
> in that official capacity, ought to be present whenever something
> momentous in the history of the sport takes place. If he was not able
> to drum Bonds out of the game before he got around to breaking Aaron's
> record, then he needs to man up and be there.
>
> Lee
>
>

Agree with all that. But one thing bothers me. DOes the Selig have to
tail Bonds around for days or weeks not knowing WHEN he'll break the
record? I think he should acknowledge it after the fact, true. But I
don't see that he has an obligation to parade around hoping today's the
day.

BTW, Bonds continues to impress me with how many levels on which one can be
a douchebag.

--
-------
Say it loud
http://tinyurl.com/39rhxa
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

"Nolan Patrick" <CallThatGone.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1184041201.478776.68490@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 9, 7:55 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote:
>> "Lee Gordon" <bucketofs....DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:Qtidnex_ltAbMw_bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > <<I disagree. I think that Selig should stay away. I absolutely do
>> > NOT
>> > buy into this bogus argument that the commish has to be there when
>> > Bonds breaks the record. If he feels that Bonds was juicing, then
>> > Seling
>> > should stay away to show MLB's official disgust with Bonds. >>
>>
>> > If he thinks Bonds was cheating, then he needs to either come up with
>> > some
>> > proof and suspend him or STFU. And while he's at it, why doesn't he
>> > take
>> > some sort of action against everybody else who he suspects of
>> > circumventing
>> > the rules. So far, the only high-profile guy who has actually been
>> > caught
>> > with his pants down is Rafael Palmiero.
>>
>> > I understand that there is a dark cloud hanging over Bonds but so far,
>> > that's all it is: a cloud. That and the fact that Bonds is a
>> > douchebag.
>> > I can fully sympathize with Hank Aaron when he expresses no interest in
>> > being there when Bonds breaks his record. And he has no obligation to
>> > be
>> > there. But Selig is the Commissioner of Baseball and, in that official
>> > capacity, ought to be present whenever something momentous in the
>> > history
>> > of
>> > the sport takes place. If he was not able to drum Bonds out of the
>> > game
>> > before he got around to breaking Aaron's record, then he needs to man
>> > up
>> > and
>> > be there.
>>
>> > Lee
>>
>> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that
>> you
>> have to
>> have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no right to be
>> worshipped
>> by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned, unless Bonds can prove
>> himself
>> not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no right to expect us to treat him in
>> the same
>> way as Hank Aaron.
>>
>> And before anyone says that that isn't the standard of guilt in the US,
>> I'd
>> say that
>> we're not in a legal court, but the court of public opinion. And in THAT
>> court,
>> we each have every right to set whatever standard of guilt or innocence
>> that
>> we
>> so choose. And if the commissioner of baseball doesn't feel right about
>> honoring
>> Bonds, then I haven't the slightest problem with Selig shunning Bonds and
>> refusing
>> to honor him with his presense. I know that I won't be watching any TV
>> coverage
>> of Bonds hitting 755.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> There you go, guilty before proven innocent.
>

Yeah...just like poor OJ.
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

Fred Burton venit, vidit, et dixit:

<snip>

> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that
> you have to have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no
> right to be worshipped by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned,
> unless Bonds can prove himself not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no
> right to expect us to treat him in the same way as Hank Aaron.

How would he prove himself not guilty beyond any doubt? So
far as I know, about the only thing he can do is pass the
steroids tests -- which he's done, right? If that doesn't
give him room for doubt, then what else can he do? (Perhaps
nothing, I dunno).

Barry Bonds is too much of a lightning rod for this question
because, despite the passing of tests, everyone seems convinced
that he used. Ok, so let's change the player. If we all started
hearing whispers about David Ortiz and steroids, how would he prove
that he was not guilty beyond any doubt? People are quick to
believe that where there's smoke there's fire, and people are
quick to believe that passing the tests doesn't prove innocence.
Fine. But how would someone who IS innocent go about to prove
it once the whispers start?

Catch you later.
--Robert Machemer


--
Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | For each time he falls, he shall
Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!
IF22: Cliff wins best film, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha)
"Can't complain; had his chance, and in modern parlance, blew it."
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

"Bob-Nob" <bobnob15 DeleteThis @SPaMol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9968D1B5EB14Ebobnob15aolcom@207.217.125.201...
> Fred Burton venit, vidit, et dixit:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that
>> you have to have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no
>> right to be worshipped by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned,
>> unless Bonds can prove himself not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no
>> right to expect us to treat him in the same way as Hank Aaron.
>
> How would he prove himself not guilty beyond any doubt? So
> far as I know, about the only thing he can do is pass the
> steroids tests -- which he's done, right? If that doesn't
> give him room for doubt, then what else can he do? (Perhaps
> nothing, I dunno).
>
> Barry Bonds is too much of a lightning rod for this question
> because, despite the passing of tests, everyone seems convinced
> that he used. Ok, so let's change the player. If we all started
> hearing whispers about David Ortiz and steroids, how would he prove
> that he was not guilty beyond any doubt? People are quick to
> believe that where there's smoke there's fire, and people are
> quick to believe that passing the tests doesn't prove innocence.
> Fine. But how would someone who IS innocent go about to prove
> it once the whispers start?

Not my problem.

But for starters, not being a jackass. Bonds is a jackass, and as such,
(not to sound too mystical) what goes around comes around. And,
frankly BECAUSE Barry Bonds is a jackass, I don't give a flying
F about helping him out. He can solve his own credibility problems
and deal with the consequences of years of being a jackass.
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

"Nolan Patrick" <CallThatGone.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1184041201.478776.68490@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 9, 7:55 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote:
>> "Lee Gordon" <bucketofs....DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:Qtidnex_ltAbMw_bnZ2dnUVZ_vCknZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > <<I disagree. I think that Selig should stay away. I absolutely do
>> > NOT
>> > buy into this bogus argument that the commish has to be there when
>> > Bonds breaks the record. If he feels that Bonds was juicing, then
>> > Seling
>> > should stay away to show MLB's official disgust with Bonds. >>
>>
>> > If he thinks Bonds was cheating, then he needs to either come up with
>> > some
>> > proof and suspend him or STFU. And while he's at it, why doesn't he
>> > take
>> > some sort of action against everybody else who he suspects of
>> > circumventing
>> > the rules. So far, the only high-profile guy who has actually been
>> > caught
>> > with his pants down is Rafael Palmiero.
>>
>> > I understand that there is a dark cloud hanging over Bonds but so far,
>> > that's all it is: a cloud. That and the fact that Bonds is a
>> > douchebag.
>> > I can fully sympathize with Hank Aaron when he expresses no interest in
>> > being there when Bonds breaks his record. And he has no obligation to
>> > be
>> > there. But Selig is the Commissioner of Baseball and, in that official
>> > capacity, ought to be present whenever something momentous in the
>> > history
>> > of
>> > the sport takes place. If he was not able to drum Bonds out of the
>> > game
>> > before he got around to breaking Aaron's record, then he needs to man
>> > up
>> > and
>> > be there.
>>
>> > Lee
>>
>> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that
>> you
>> have to
>> have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no right to be
>> worshipped
>> by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned, unless Bonds can prove
>> himself
>> not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no right to expect us to treat him in
>> the same
>> way as Hank Aaron.
>>
>> And before anyone says that that isn't the standard of guilt in the US,
>> I'd
>> say that
>> we're not in a legal court, but the court of public opinion. And in THAT
>> court,
>> we each have every right to set whatever standard of guilt or innocence
>> that
>> we
>> so choose. And if the commissioner of baseball doesn't feel right about
>> honoring
>> Bonds, then I haven't the slightest problem with Selig shunning Bonds and
>> refusing
>> to honor him with his presense. I know that I won't be watching any TV
>> coverage
>> of Bonds hitting 755.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> There you go, guilty before proven innocent.
>

As I said, this is NOT a court of law, it's the court of public opinion
and the same rules do not apply.

Besides, you should also remember that "innocent before proven guilty"
is not a universal concept, even in democratic countries. It is a
preferable
concept, but not universally accepted, to the best of my knowledge.
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

On Jul 9, 7:55 pm, "Fred Burton" <fbur....RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote:

> The difference between you and me on this is that I don't believe that you
> have to
> have definitive proof to shun Barry Bonds. Bonds has no right to be
> worshipped
> by the commissioner. As far as I'm concerned, unless Bonds can prove
> himself
> not guilty beyond any doubt, he has no right to expect us to treat him in
> the same
> way as Hank Aaron.
>
> And before anyone says that that isn't the standard of guilt in the US, I'd
> say that
> we're not in a legal court, but the court of public opinion.


The self-described Constitutional "literalist" doesn't understand the
concept of "presumption of innocence," or where the burden of proof
lies in our system of justice. How fitting. Typical conservative
burden-shifting hypocrisy, combined with Fred's unique brand of
idiocy. How can one claim to interpret the Constitution literally,
when you can't even be bound to its fundamental principles?
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig 

"J Buck" <jbuck41 DeleteThis @webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21600-4692F671-1289@storefull-3134.bay.webtv.net...
> Ray wrote: <MLB {meaning selig and the other owners} all knew about
> steroids and drugs. they were the ones supplying them half the time.>
>
> Knowing about steroid use and claiming they supplied is a pretty big
> jump, Ray.
>

Baloney. They all knew about it. The owners, the GMs, Selig and all those TV
guys that are running the show.
I've heard Canseco say as much. The only guy who has told the truth, it
seems.

What they wanted was more offense--for more ratings.
And the players gave it to them.

You must admit, the ride with Big Mac and Sosa--and later Bonds--was
something. Remember the all-star game at Fenway, when Mac was hitting one
after another over the Green Monster in the HR contest?
 >> Stay informed about: bonds and selig