if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs...

F R wrote:
> has anybody come up with a definitive reason as to how barry went from a
> terrificc ball player and hall of famer to a top 3 all time great at
> such an advanced age and after more than a dozen years as a major
> leaguer?
>

He changed his hitting style to hit the ball in the air more often.

This explanation was suggested a couple of years ago, and that it was an
intentional change he made was hinted to earlier this year by him.

Of course, no one has paid much attention to it because it's not as
interesting as steroids.

paul
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

"F R" <essponda.DeleteThis@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10508-4179BAC5-821@storefull-3317.bay.webtv.net...
> has anybody come up with a definitive reason as to how barry went from a
> terrificc ball player and hall of famer to a top 3 all time great at
> such an advanced age and after more than a dozen years as a major
> leaguer?
>
> frank
>

Well I'm ot sure if you're giving him enough credit for his early career.
He won the MVP in 90 and 92 in Pittsburgh, and frankly probably would have
won in 91 as well if the writers didn't want to reward *someone* from
Atlanta. He signed what was then the largest FA contract in history, and
followed that up with a season not seen very often in the previous 20 years.
With a very few exceptions, Bonds has been one of the few players in history
where you could almost always make a case for him to be MVP every year,
probably the first one since Mickey Mantle. Like others said, he has
refined his game , his vision at the plate.

The other thing that's happening is that the media have always had it in for
Bonds because he doesn't play their game. So if they did give him coverage,
it was always laced with "but he's a jerk"....but after so many years of
consistently superior performance, they have no choice but to cover him, and
give a historical perspective in order to maintain their credibility. So
the perception of him has evolved, and so now you're hearing about how he
ranks historically.

Plus, perception wise, the rise of a group like this where most
knowledgeable posters realize that whether a guy gives interviews or not
matters not a whit allows a more objective view of things.

Another thing I think has happened is that as time has progressed, Bonds has
achieved what Ted Williams had with umpires. That is to say the ump thinks
long and hard about calling a strike at a pitch he doesn't swing at. His
eye is so good, if he didn't swing, it must not have been a strike.

Otherwise, maybe we should just make sure we enjoy the fact we've been
fortunate to witness a player of his calibre without all the
analysis......
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

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 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:58:29 -0400, essponda RemoveThis @webtv.net (F R) wrote:

>has anybody come up with a definitive reason as to how barry went from a
>terrificc ball player and hall of famer to a top 3 all time great at
>such an advanced age and after more than a dozen years as a major
>leaguer?
>
>frank

Maybe the dozen years he put in contributed something to that.
Hmmm...maybe I should start taking steroids too, if it can do all that
for me.

Tom
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:58:29 -0400, essponda.TakeThisOut@webtv.net (F R) wrote:

>has anybody come up with a definitive reason as to how barry went from a
>terrificc ball player and hall of famer to a top 3 all time great at
>such an advanced age and after more than a dozen years as a major
>leaguer?

-Time...You can't amass that many Hrs in a 10 year career.
-Strike Zone mastery
-Reputation throughout the league
-Health

and the maple bat...

No one ever mentions the maple bat as an increase in Bonds' HR numbers
except Bonds. When he switched to maple his HR's rose.

Harder wood, less chance of breaking, possible increase in swing
speed=more Home runs





"I'm the luckiest man in the world. I have a cigarette
lighter and a wife...and they both work!"
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

>Well I'm ot sure if you're giving him enough credit for his early career.
>He won the MVP in 90 and 92 in Pittsburgh, and frankly probably would have
>won in 91 as well if the writers didn't want to reward *someone* from
>Atlanta. He signed what was then the largest FA contract in history, and
>followed that up with a season not seen very often in the previous 20 years.
>With a very few exceptions, Bonds has been one of the few players in history
>where you could almost always make a case for him to be MVP every year,
>probably the first one since Mickey Mantle. Like others said, he has
>refined his game , his vision at the plate.

Add to what was already a HOF career a late season career power surge
reminescent of Darrell Evans and Hank Aaron. Everybody ages differently, there
have been other cases of players who seem to constantly improve as they age;
Jose Cruz is one who comes to mind, Brian Downing was another.

Bonds has been constantly improving his game throughout his career, ignoring
the steroid issue. His offensive performance took a giant leap forward in
1990, and took another in the late 90's. I am willing to give him the benefit
of doubt at this point that he has not done steroids as there is currently no
definitive proof of such.

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"I actually thought about voting for John Kerry before I decided to vote
against him."
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

Cadillac_Jones <d DeleteThis @D.com> writes:

>On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:58:29 -0400, essponda DeleteThis @webtv.net (F R) wrote:
>
>>has anybody come up with a definitive reason as to how barry went
>>from a terrificc ball player and hall of famer to a top 3 all time
>>great at such an advanced age and after more than a dozen years as a
>>major leaguer?
>
>-Time...You can't amass that many Hrs in a 10 year career.
>-Strike Zone mastery
>-Reputation throughout the league
>-Health
>
>and the maple bat...
>
>No one ever mentions the maple bat as an increase in Bonds' HR
>numbers except Bonds. When he switched to maple his HR's rose.
>
>Harder wood, less chance of breaking, possible increase in swing
>speed=more Home runs

I believe there are many players that are using the maple bats. Has
anyone looked at how much of a difference it has made for the others?

--
Milt Epstein
mepstein DeleteThis @uiuc.edu
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:54:46 +0000 (UTC), Milt Epstein
<mepstein.DeleteThis@uiuc.edu> wrote:

>I believe there are many players that are using the maple bats. Has
>anyone looked at how much of a difference it has made for the others?

I haven't seen a study anywhere on it but it's definitely a major
technology change and the durability factor alone gives it a distinct
advantage over ash. Bonds had mentioned in an interview that being
able to use the same bat for weeks at a time gave him a big advantage
in feel and that he was losing hits each year to broken ash bats. When
it comes to hitting a baseball I tend to consider Bonds an authority
on 'feel' and in any case the maple bats break much less frequently
than ash.

I would like to see a study made on the physics of maple versus ash in
both swing dynamic and power transfer to the baseball. Can you
imagine the uproar if they change the cover of the baseball to a
synthetic? The maple bat has gone relatively unnoticed.

Obviously I'm going on anecdotal evidence here with most of it based
on a Bonds interview from a few years ago. But there is a definite
correlation to him changing bats and his HR increase.

Does anyone know if Beltre switched to maple this year?



"I'm the luckiest man in the world. I have a cigarette
lighter and a wife...and they both work!"
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:45:26 GMT, Cadillac_Jones <d.TakeThisOut@D.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:54:46 +0000 (UTC), Milt Epstein
><mepstein.TakeThisOut@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>>I believe there are many players that are using the maple bats. Has
>>anyone looked at how much of a difference it has made for the others?
>
>I haven't seen a study anywhere on it but it's definitely a major
>technology change and the durability factor alone gives it a distinct
>advantage over ash. Bonds had mentioned in an interview that being
>able to use the same bat for weeks at a time gave him a big advantage
>in feel and that he was losing hits each year to broken ash bats. When
>it comes to hitting a baseball I tend to consider Bonds an authority
>on 'feel' and in any case the maple bats break much less frequently
>than ash.
>
>I would like to see a study made on the physics of maple versus ash in
>both swing dynamic and power transfer to the baseball. Can you
>imagine the uproar if they change the cover of the baseball to a
>synthetic? The maple bat has gone relatively unnoticed.
>
>Obviously I'm going on anecdotal evidence here with most of it based
>on a Bonds interview from a few years ago. But there is a definite
>correlation to him changing bats and his HR increase.
>
>Does anyone know if Beltre switched to maple this year?

Not that I heard - or noticed, in the 130 or so Dodger games I watched
this year. The big changes were him being less likely to swing at
breaking pitches in the dirt, and him being more likely to hit to
right field.
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

"F R" <essponda RemoveThis @webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10508-4179BAC5-821@storefull-3317.bay.webtv.net...
> has anybody come up with a definitive reason as to how barry went from a
> terrificc ball player and hall of famer to a top 3 all time great at
> such an advanced age and after more than a dozen years as a major
> leaguer?
>
> frank

You won't get much rational discussion here on this particular subject.
Anyone with a good knowledge of human physiology and athletic training
realizes that what Barry did at his age is impossible without performance
enhancing drugs. The troll RM puts a hint of truth in some of his posts
that many people here basically stick their heads in the sand about Bonds'
drug usuage because they love the numbers he is putting up. The stat
community in general has been very slow to acknowledge and analyze the
impact steroids have made on the game. Its an important issue if they want
to legitimately continue comparing players across different eras.

--
"They tease me now, telling me it was only a dream. But does it matter
whether it was a dream or reality, if the dream made known to me the
truth?" - Dostoevsky
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

In article <UgIed.7264$ta5.3654@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Chris Zabel" <alephnull.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"F R" <essponda.RemoveThis@webtv.net> wrote in message

>> has anybody come up with a definitive reason as to how barry went from a
>> terrificc ball player and hall of famer to a top 3 all time great at
>> such an advanced age and after more than a dozen years as a major
>> leaguer?

>You won't get much rational discussion here on this particular subject.
>Anyone with a good knowledge of human physiology and athletic training
>realizes that what Barry did at his age is impossible without performance
>enhancing drugs.

Really. Care to point to the scientific study that says that it is
"impossible" to do that without "performance enhancing drugs"?

---------------------------------------------
David M. Nieporent nieporen.RemoveThis@alumni.princeton.edu
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs... 

In article <UgIed.7264$ta5.3654@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
alephnull.RemoveThis@earthlink.net says...
>
> You won't get much rational discussion here on this particular subject.
> Anyone with a good knowledge of human physiology and athletic training
> realizes that what Barry did at his age is impossible without performance
> enhancing drugs. The troll RM puts a hint of truth in some of his posts
> that many people here basically stick their heads in the sand about Bonds'
> drug usuage because they love the numbers he is putting up. The stat
> community in general has been very slow to acknowledge and analyze the
> impact steroids have made on the game. Its an important issue if they want
> to legitimately continue comparing players across different eras.

There's still just as much reason to believe that the records of
those 30 years ago are tainted by widespread amphetamine usage and
660 and 755 were gotten using drugs. Frankly, I'll acknowledge the
impact when we have actual evidence of widespread use of steroids.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan.RemoveThis@baseballprimerREMOVE.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."
- Robert Schumann
 >> Stay informed about: if barry isn't taking performance enhancing drugs...