Take Zito out of the rotation

"Brent Peterson" <brentpeterson01.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:485998a4$1@darkstar...
> Dr. Wayne Simon wrote:
>> If he does not get guys out at low
>> A. shut him down for the year, and run a series of medical tests on the
>> guy. lnclude the Psychiatry department.
>
> If only Zito's problems were psychological. I'll tell you what: if the
> Giants can find a psychologist who can add 5-7mph to a pitcher's declining
> fastball and some sharp break to a pitcher's flat curveball, then the team
> should give that guy $126 million dollars.
>
> -Brent

Nicely said! LMAO
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

If it wasn't for his salary Zito would have been sent down or released
long time go.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

Brent Peterson <brentpeterson01.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:485998a4$1@darkstar:

> Dr. Wayne Simon wrote:
>> If he does not get guys out at low
>> A. shut him down for the year, and run a series of medical tests on
>> the guy. lnclude the Psychiatry department.
>
> If only Zito's problems were psychological. I'll tell you what: if
> the Giants can find a psychologist who can add 5-7mph to a pitcher's
> declining fastball and some sharp break to a pitcher's flat curveball,
> then the team should give that guy $126 million dollars.
>
> -Brent
>
>

True: but after Bochy went out and read him the riot act in the 2nd
inning, he suddenly was able to get people out. Watching Bochy, I think
he is completely at the end of his rope with this guy. Yes, he has lost
speed off his fast ball, but I agree with Wayne: a lot of it is between
his ears.

I also agree with Wayne that something meeds to be done. The Giants can
not, no matter how much they are paying him, continue to send out an
automatic meltdown every 5th game. There are pitchers who will be our
future who need a chance to start, and Zito is blocking them.

Hey! Missing a start for the first time in his career had a positive
effect. Maybe being sent down to the minors for the first time in his
career will have a similar effect. If he can pitch effectively at AAA, it
will build a fire in him to come back up and show his stuff. If he can't
get AAA hitters out, then he really is finished.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

Watching the game today his main problem was definitely location. He hung
the curve several times obviously but if he would just start hitting his
spots I doubt that he would need any more velocity. And being realistic,
that velocity is not coming back.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

On Jun 18, 7:17 pm, Brent Peterson <brentpeterso... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dr. Wayne Simon wrote:
> > If he does not get guys out at low
> > A. shut him down for the year, and run a series of medical tests on the guy.
> > lnclude the Psychiatry department.
>
> If only Zito's problems were psychological. I'll tell you what: if the
> Giants can find a psychologist who can add 5-7mph to a pitcher's
> declining fastball and some sharp break to a pitcher's flat curveball,
> then the team should give that guy $126 million dollars.

One of the truly fascinating things with Zito is that he's using his
change more to righties than he used to (23% of his pitches to
righties have been changeups this year)

Doesn't strike me as a real good idea for Zito to throw more
changeups than curves (he only throws 17% curveballs), though I
guess his curve isn't what it was either.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:17:40 -0700, Brent Peterson
<brentpeterson01.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Dr. Wayne Simon wrote:
>> If he does not get guys out at low
>> A. shut him down for the year, and run a series of medical tests on the guy.
>> lnclude the Psychiatry department.
>
>If only Zito's problems were psychological. I'll tell you what: if the
>Giants can find a psychologist who can add 5-7mph to a pitcher's
>declining fastball and some sharp break to a pitcher's flat curveball,
>then the team should give that guy $126 million dollars.

I think it's probably time for the Mark Wohlers solution.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

trout wrote:
> Watching the game today his main problem was definitely location. He hung
> the curve several times obviously but if he would just start hitting his
> spots I doubt that he would need any more velocity.

Hitting spots will only do so much for you. You don't need to throw 95
(or even 8, but you need *some* velocity. Once a pitcher struggles to
break 80 with his fastball, it becomes very hard to be effective. There
are examples of such pitchers, but they're rare, especially in today's
game. The batter has the advantage of waiting on every pitch.

For the two or three seasons when Zito was an excellent pitcher (many
years ago), he could throw in the low 90s. When Zito won his Cy Young
Award, he wasn't throwing the ball like Kirk Reuter.



> And being realistic,
> that velocity is not coming back.

Being realistic, a lot of things aren't coming back. When the Giants
signed Zito, it had already been 5 years since his excellent Cy Young
season of 2002. In the four seasons that followed his great year,
Zito's performance varied between average and good. Zito wasn't a great
pitcher when the Giants signed him, and his numbers were, if anything,
pointing in the direction of decline, not improvement. The result is
that the Giants are now stuck with a guy whose upside is an average
starting pitcher. The downside? Well, we're seeing it every fifth game.

-Brent
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

"Brent Peterson" <brentpeterson01.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:485ac495$1@darkstar...
>
> trout wrote:
>> Watching the game today his main problem was definitely location. He hung
>> the curve several times obviously but if he would just start hitting his
>> spots I doubt that he would need any more velocity.
>
> Hitting spots will only do so much for you. You don't need to throw 95
> (or even 8, but you need *some* velocity. Once a pitcher struggles to
> break 80 with his fastball, it becomes very hard to be effective. There
> are examples of such pitchers, but they're rare, especially in today's
> game. The batter has the advantage of waiting on every pitch.
>
> For the two or three seasons when Zito was an excellent pitcher (many
> years ago), he could throw in the low 90s. When Zito won his Cy Young
> Award, he wasn't throwing the ball like Kirk Reuter.
>
>
>
>> And being realistic, that velocity is not coming back.
>
> Being realistic, a lot of things aren't coming back. When the Giants
> signed Zito, it had already been 5 years since his excellent Cy Young
> season of 2002. In the four seasons that followed his great year, Zito's
> performance varied between average and good. Zito wasn't a great pitcher
> when the Giants signed him, and his numbers were, if anything, pointing in
> the direction of decline, not improvement. The result is that the Giants
> are now stuck with a guy whose upside is an average starting pitcher. The
> downside? Well, we're seeing it every fifth game.
>
> -Brent
>
>
>He must be DL'd. They can figure out what is wrong with him while he is
>on the DL. If the giants were 20 games out now it wouldn't matter, but the
>only reason they are 8 games back in this weak division is Zito.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

On Jun 19, 4:37 pm, Brent Peterson <brentpeterso....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Hitting spots will only do so much for you. You don't need to throw 95
> (or even 8, but you need *some* velocity. Once a pitcher struggles to
> break 80 with his fastball, it becomes very hard to be effective.

For the record, Baseball Info Solution has speed data going back to
2005 (broken down by pitch type). Zito's average fastball
starting in 2005: 87.3, 85.8, 84.5, 84.

(Lincecum's change is at 83.1 this year)

Looking at the data it seems that one big difference since
2005 is his slider. In 2005 he threw 8.5% sliders and they
came in at 81. These days he's throwing just over 3% sliders
and they're coming in at 76.3.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

Ron Johnson wrote:
> On Jun 19, 4:37 pm, Brent Peterson <brentpeterso... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hitting spots will only do so much for you. You don't need to throw 95
>> (or even 8, but you need *some* velocity. Once a pitcher struggles to
>> break 80 with his fastball, it becomes very hard to be effective.
>
> For the record, Baseball Info Solution has speed data going back to
> 2005 (broken down by pitch type). Zito's average fastball
> starting in 2005: 87.3, 85.8, 84.5, 84.

You've got some nerve showing up here and refuting my hyperbole with
actual numbers.

Seriously, the decline shown between 2005 and 2008 is about what I
thought, though my (apparently incorrect) perception was that he had
lost an additional 1-2 mph off his fastball this year. If Baseball Info
Solution had speed data going back to 2001, I bet it would show a steady
decline from 89-90 down to the current level of 84.


> (Lincecum's change is at 83.1 this year)
>
> Looking at the data it seems that one big difference since
> 2005 is his slider. In 2005 he threw 8.5% sliders and they
> came in at 81. These days he's throwing just over 3% sliders
> and they're coming in at 76.3.

There's another difference that an "average speed" figure won't
completely reflect. Although this is in the realm of subjective
recollection, I recall that Zito once had the ability to rear back and
hit 91-93 when needed. No, he wouldn't throw every fastball that hard,
but he had the range (or whatever you want to call it) to go a few MPH
over his "average" in a critical situation. That ability seems to be
gone. It's not just that his average speed is slower; it's also that
his top end, relative to his average, seems down.

-Brent
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

Ron Johnson <johnson RemoveThis @ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> wrote in news:8d3dc8d9-2504-4ba0-
b586-de84c22dd74f RemoveThis @r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> For the record, Baseball Info Solution has speed data going back to
> 2005 (broken down by pitch type). Zito's average fastball
> starting in 2005: 87.3, 85.8, 84.5, 84.

Could you post a link to that? Google didn't find it.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

"elaich" <x.DeleteThis@y.z> wrote in message news:6c3652F3f8asjU1@mid.individual.net...
> Ron Johnson <johnson.DeleteThis@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> wrote in news:8d3dc8d9-2504-4ba0-
> b586-de84c22dd74f.DeleteThis@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>> For the record, Baseball Info Solution has speed data going back to
>> 2005 (broken down by pitch type). Zito's average fastball
>> starting in 2005: 87.3, 85.8, 84.5, 84.
>
> Could you post a link to that? Google didn't find it.

Its not only his speed, of course which is important, despite throwing with
less velocity, his control is much worse.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation 

On Jun 20, 10:08 pm, elaich <x....RemoveThis@y.z> wrote:
> Ron Johnson <john....RemoveThis@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> wrote in news:8d3dc8d9-2504-4ba0-
> b586-de84c22dd....RemoveThis@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
> > For the record, Baseball Info Solution has speed data going back to
> > 2005 (broken down by pitch type). Zito's average fastball
> > starting in 2005: 87.3, 85.8, 84.5, 84.
>
> Could you post a link to that? Google didn't find it.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=944&position=P

Look at the Pitch type section at the bottom.

Great site in any case.

www.billjamesonline.net slices up the same data source
in different ways -- though I haven't seen velocity
there. It's a pay site but dirt cheap.
 >> Stay informed about: Take Zito out of the rotation