Sad Opening

On Mar 26, 1:28 pm, The Dave© <n....TakeThisOut@no.com> wrote:
> > rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com wrote:
>
> > The A's, on the other hand, know they will
> > never be paid a major league salary until free agency or a trade to an
> > organization that recognizes talent with cash.
>
> You describe a good thing, actually.  What's the alternative?  Get
> stuck at AAA in the Yankees organization because they keep signing
> overpriced stars that rarely pan out, thus blocking a realistic shot at
> the big leagues?  I'd bet there are players in some organizations that
> would absolutely LOVE to play for the A's because they know it's an
> honest shot to establish themselves.


I need a little clarification on the above post, Dave. Yes it's
possible for a good upcoming ballplayer to be stuck at AAA in the
Yankee organization because of the Steinbrenners' spending policies.
It's also possible for a good ballplayer to be stuck in the minors in
the A's organization because of the A's non-spending policies, as they
pick up replacement players at waiver-wire prices. Six-of-one-half-a-
dozen of the other, I'd say. Meanwhile, let's have talent rewarded,
--as ever, Russ
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

On Mar 27, 6:45 am, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com>
wrote:
> On Mar 26, 1:28 pm, The Dave© <n....TakeThisOut@no.com> wrote:
>
> > > rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com wrote:
>
> > > The A's, on the other hand, know they will
> > > never be paid a major league salary until free agency or a trade to an
> > > organization that recognizes talent with cash.
>
> > You describe a good thing, actually. What's the alternative? Get
> > stuck at AAA in the Yankees organization because they keep signing
> > overpriced stars that rarely pan out, thus blocking a realistic shot at
> > the big leagues? I'd bet there are players in some organizations that
> > would absolutely LOVE to play for the A's because they know it's an
> > honest shot to establish themselves.
>
> I need a little clarification on the above post, Dave. Yes it's
> possible for a good upcoming ballplayer to be stuck at AAA in the
> Yankee organization because of the Steinbrenners' spending policies.
> It's also possible for a good ballplayer to be stuck in the minors in
> the A's organization because of the A's non-spending policies, as they
> pick up replacement players at waiver-wire prices. Six-of-one-half-a-
> dozen of the other, I'd say. Meanwhile, let's have talent rewarded,
> --as ever, Russ

Russ, there's no arguing that the A's are a frugal outfit. But your
contention that young players don't or shouldn't want to come up with
the A's is nonsense. Here, from top to bottom, are the 10 highest
paid players on the A's, with their '08 salary (in base pay, ignoring
incentive bonus):

*Eric Chavez $11 million
Mark Ellis $5 million
*Rich Harden $4.5 million
*Joe Blanton $3.7 million
*Bobby Crosby $3.5 million
*Huston Street $3.3 million
Alan Embree $2.75 million
Chad Gaudin $1.75 million
Emil Brown $1.45 million
Justin Duchscherer $1.2 million

* = drafted by Oakland (Emil Brown was originally drafted by the A's,
but we'll consider him a free-agent)

Now, for comparison, here is the same top-10 list of the Boston Red
Sox:

Manny Ramirez $20 million
J.D. Drew $14 million
David Ortiz $13 million
Mike Lowell $12.5 million
Jason Varitek $10 million
Josh Beckett $10 million
Julio Lugo $9 million
Daisuke Matsuzaka $8.5 million
Curt Schilling $8 million
Coco Crisp $5.2 million

None of these players were drafted by Boston. The point you keep
making that young players would rather be picked up by teams other
than Oakland doesn't have any merit. Why would you want to be a young
player on Boston, like say Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon, or
Dustin Pedroia? They see that the team focuses it's wealth on guys
from outside the organization to build it's long-term, high-salary
lineup, while young players have tended to only stick around while
they can be taken advantage of for cheap:

Kevin Youkilis $3 million (just signed 1 year contract)
Jonathan Papelbon $775 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)
Dustin Pedroia $450 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)

Sure, these are good young players that the Red Sox might give a big
contract to later on. But the Red Sox have no history of doing that.
They have zero players on their payroll that came up with them that
are signed to a long-term contract. And they have no homegrown player
earning even as much as the lowest paid of the 5 homegrown guys on the
A's list I showed above. NONE.

It should be obvious to anyone (and I think it is obvious to everyone
but you), that the A's are among the BEST and MOST DESIRABLE teams
for a young player to get drafted by. They give a kid a much better
shot at making the majors young, making millions young--and all while
playing for a quality, winning franchise with post-season
aspirations. And if you're in the majors young, you become eligible
for free-agency at an earlier age. And that means a longer period of
earning the big bucks in the major league free-agent market. And that
translates to GREATER LIFETIME EARNINGS. It doesn't get any better
than that.

Being signed by the A's is the best thing that could possibly have
happed to Barry Zito and Jason Giambi. If they'd spent an extra year
or two in the minors with Boston or New York, they wouldn't have
become unrestricted free-agents until AFTER they'd started to decline,
and therefore might have missed out on the insane (and stupid) bidding
war that produced their unbelievable wealth. I admire the A's for
not being dumb enough to spend hundreds of millions of dollars
outbidding other teams for washed up players, but instead make an
effort to hold onto and reward it's homegrown talent for as long as
they can.

And for the record here are the top-10 earners on the Yankees
(homegrown talent marked with *):

Alex Rodriguez $27 million
Jason Giambi $21 million
*Derek Jeter $20 million
Bobby Abreu $16 million
Andy Pettitte $16 million
*Mariano Rivera rhp $15 million
*Jorge Posada $13 million
Johnny Damon $13 million
Hideki Matsui $13 million
Mike Mussina $11.5 million

Technically, Andy Pettitte was drafted by the Yankees, but was gone
several years, then came back as a free-agent, so I'd consider him a
free-agent now.

So, the Yankees are the one team that can afford to go all out and
blend the two styles. Keep some homegrown players forever, no matter
how expensive, and still sign a ton of free-agents, no matter how
expensive. They just signed Robinson Cano to a 4 year, 30 million
dollar deal, and he has one less year of service than does Kevin
Youkilis, so the Yankees are clearly more generous to young stars than
the Red Sox. The point is that the Yankees are the ONLY team to do
that. Even the 2nd biggest spending club in baseball, the Red Sox,
has to cut corners somewhere, and does it by paying free-agents, not
homegrown players.
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

On Mar 27, 10:44 am, thisplanetsux <thisplanet....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:45 am, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom....RemoveThis@netzero.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 26, 1:28 pm, The Dave© <n....RemoveThis@no.com> wrote:
>
> > > > rbbom....RemoveThis@netzero.com wrote:
>
> > > > "The A's, on the other hand, know they will
> > > > never be paid a major league salary until free agency or a trade to an
> > > > organization that recognizes talent with cash."
>
> > > You describe a good thing, actually.  What's the alternative?  Get
> > > stuck at AAA in the Yankees organization because they keep signing
> > > overpriced stars that rarely pan out, thus blocking a realistic shot at
> > > the big leagues?  I'd bet there are players in some organizations that
> > > would absolutely LOVE to play for the A's because they know it's an
> > > honest shot to establish themselves.
>
> > I need a little clarification on the above post, Dave. Yes it's
> > possible for a good upcoming ballplayer to be stuck at AAA in the
> > Yankee organization because of the Steinbrenners' spending policies.
> > It's also possible for a good ballplayer to be stuck  in the minors in
> > the A's organization because of the A's non-spending policies, as they
> > pick up replacement players at waiver-wire prices. Six-of-one-half-a-
> > dozen of the other, I'd say. Meanwhile, let's have talent rewarded,
> >        --as ever, Russ
>
> Russ, there's no arguing that the A's are a frugal outfit.  But your
> contention that young players don't or shouldn't want to come up with
> the A's is nonsense.  Here, from top to bottom, are the 10 highest
> paid players on the A's, with their '08 salary (in base pay, ignoring
> incentive bonus):
>
> *Eric Chavez $11 million
> Mark Ellis $5 million
> *Rich Harden $4.5 million
> *Joe Blanton $3.7 million
> *Bobby Crosby $3.5 million
> *Huston Street $3.3 million
> Alan Embree $2.75 million
> Chad Gaudin $1.75 million
> Emil Brown $1.45 million
> Justin Duchscherer $1.2 million
>
> * = drafted by Oakland (Emil Brown was originally drafted by the A's,
> but we'll consider him a free-agent)
>
> Now, for comparison, here is the same top-10 list of the Boston Red
> Sox:
>
> Manny Ramirez $20 million
> J.D. Drew $14 million
> David Ortiz $13 million
> Mike Lowell $12.5 million
> Jason Varitek $10 million
> Josh Beckett $10 million
> Julio Lugo $9 million
> Daisuke Matsuzaka $8.5 million
> Curt Schilling $8 million
> Coco Crisp $5.2 million
>
> None of these players were drafted by Boston.  The point you keep
> making that young players would rather be picked up by teams other
> than Oakland doesn't have any merit.  Why would you want to be a young
> player on Boston, like say Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon, or
> Dustin Pedroia?  They see that the team focuses it's wealth on guys
> from outside the organization to build it's long-term, high-salary
> lineup, while young players have tended to only stick around while
> they can be taken advantage of for cheap:
>
> Kevin Youkilis $3 million (just signed 1 year contract)
> Jonathan Papelbon  $775 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)
> Dustin Pedroia $450 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)
>
> Sure, these are good young players that the Red Sox might give a big
> contract to later on.  But the Red Sox have no history of doing that.
> They have zero players on their payroll that came up with them that
> are signed to a long-term contract.  And they have no homegrown player
> earning even as much as the lowest paid of the 5 homegrown guys on the
> A's list I showed above. NONE.
>
> It should be obvious to anyone (and I think it is obvious to everyone
> but you), that the A's are  among the BEST and MOST DESIRABLE teams
> for a young player to get drafted by.  They give a kid a much better
> shot at making the majors young, making millions young--and all while
> playing for a quality, winning franchise with post-season
> aspirations.  And if you're in the majors young, you become eligible
> for free-agency at an earlier age.  And that means a  longer period of
> earning the big bucks in the major league free-agent market.  And that
> translates to GREATER LIFETIME EARNINGS.  It doesn't get any better
> than that.
>
> Being signed by the A's is the best thing that could possibly have
> happed to Barry Zito and Jason Giambi.  If they'd spent an extra year
> or two in the minors with Boston or New York, they wouldn't have
> become unrestricted free-agents until AFTER they'd started to decline,
> and therefore might have missed out on the insane (and stupid) bidding
> war that produced their unbelievable wealth.  I  admire the A's for
> not being dumb enough to spend hundreds of millions of dollars
> outbidding other teams for washed up players, but instead make an
> effort to hold onto and reward it's homegrown talent for as long as
> they can.
>
> And for the record here are the top-10 earners on the Yankees
> (homegrown talent marked with *):
>
> Alex Rodriguez $27 million
> Jason Giambi $21 million
> *Derek Jeter $20 million
> Bobby Abreu $16 million
> Andy Pettitte $16 million
> *Mariano Rivera rhp $15 million
> *Jorge Posada $13 million
> Johnny Damon $13 million
> Hideki Matsui $13 million
> Mike Mussina $11.5 million
>
> Technically, Andy Pettitte was drafted by the Yankees, but was gone
> several years, then came back as a free-agent, so I'd consider him a
> free-agent now.
>
> So, the Yankees are the one team that can afford to go all out and
> blend the two styles.  Keep some homegrown players forever, no matter
> how expensive, and still sign a ton of free-agents, no matter how
> expensive.  They just signed Robinson Cano to a 4 year, 30 million
> dollar deal, and he has one less year of service than does Kevin
> Youkilis, so the Yankees are clearly more generous to young stars than
> the Red Sox. The point is that the Yankees are the ONLY team to do
> that.  Even the 2nd biggest spending club in baseball, the Red Sox,
> has to cut corners somewhere, and does it by paying free-agents, not
> homegrown players.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Dear Sux,
Thanks for fleshing my statement about the sad opening night
in Japan by posting names and numbers, and making my point: ""The A's,
on the other hand, know they will never be paid a major league salary
until free agency or a trade to an
organization that recognizes talent with cash." I was not
distinguishing among draftees, rule 5 draftees, replacement players,
or players received in trades; rather I was pointing out that the A's
don't pay for talent. Your numbers have the Yanks at about $150
million, the Red Sox at about $110 million; the A's? About $38
million, almost a third of which goes to one player, Eric Chavez,
which may have ownership gnashing its false teeth. False and cheap
ownership.
One of the reasons I like rooting for the A's is that they must
not merely do what they can against their opponents on the field; they
must also fight the cheap philosophy of ownership. It was great to see
Rich Harden dominate the Red Sox in Game 2. Enjoy him while he's an A,
Sux; he won't be for very long, either sent to the trash heap by
injuries or traded by becoming eligible for market-value pay.
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

On Mar 28, 4:47 pm, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom... DeleteThis @netzero.com>
wrote:
> On Mar 27, 10:44 am, thisplanetsux <thisplanet... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 6:45 am, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom... DeleteThis @netzero.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 26, 1:28 pm, The Dave© <n... DeleteThis @no.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > rbbom... DeleteThis @netzero.com wrote:
>
> > > > > "The A's, on the other hand, know they will
> > > > > never be paid a major league salary until free agency or a trade to an
> > > > > organization that recognizes talent with cash."
>
> > > > You describe a good thing, actually. What's the alternative? Get
> > > > stuck at AAA in the Yankees organization because they keep signing
> > > > overpriced stars that rarely pan out, thus blocking a realistic shot at
> > > > the big leagues? I'd bet there are players in some organizations that
> > > > would absolutely LOVE to play for the A's because they know it's an
> > > > honest shot to establish themselves.
>
> > > I need a little clarification on the above post, Dave. Yes it's
> > > possible for a good upcoming ballplayer to be stuck at AAA in the
> > > Yankee organization because of the Steinbrenners' spending policies.
> > > It's also possible for a good ballplayer to be stuck in the minors in
> > > the A's organization because of the A's non-spending policies, as they
> > > pick up replacement players at waiver-wire prices. Six-of-one-half-a-
> > > dozen of the other, I'd say. Meanwhile, let's have talent rewarded,
> > > --as ever, Russ
>
> > Russ, there's no arguing that the A's are a frugal outfit. But your
> > contention that young players don't or shouldn't want to come up with
> > the A's is nonsense. Here, from top to bottom, are the 10 highest
> > paid players on the A's, with their '08 salary (in base pay, ignoring
> > incentive bonus):
>
> > *Eric Chavez $11 million
> > Mark Ellis $5 million
> > *Rich Harden $4.5 million
> > *Joe Blanton $3.7 million
> > *Bobby Crosby $3.5 million
> > *Huston Street $3.3 million
> > Alan Embree $2.75 million
> > Chad Gaudin $1.75 million
> > Emil Brown $1.45 million
> > Justin Duchscherer $1.2 million
>
> > * = drafted by Oakland (Emil Brown was originally drafted by the A's,
> > but we'll consider him a free-agent)
>
> > Now, for comparison, here is the same top-10 list of the Boston Red
> > Sox:
>
> > Manny Ramirez $20 million
> > J.D. Drew $14 million
> > David Ortiz $13 million
> > Mike Lowell $12.5 million
> > Jason Varitek $10 million
> > Josh Beckett $10 million
> > Julio Lugo $9 million
> > Daisuke Matsuzaka $8.5 million
> > Curt Schilling $8 million
> > Coco Crisp $5.2 million
>
> > None of these players were drafted by Boston. The point you keep
> > making that young players would rather be picked up by teams other
> > than Oakland doesn't have any merit. Why would you want to be a young
> > player on Boston, like say Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon, or
> > Dustin Pedroia? They see that the team focuses it's wealth on guys
> > from outside the organization to build it's long-term, high-salary
> > lineup, while young players have tended to only stick around while
> > they can be taken advantage of for cheap:
>
> > Kevin Youkilis $3 million (just signed 1 year contract)
> > Jonathan Papelbon $775 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)
> > Dustin Pedroia $450 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)
>
> > Sure, these are good young players that the Red Sox might give a big
> > contract to later on. But the Red Sox have no history of doing that.
> > They have zero players on their payroll that came up with them that
> > are signed to a long-term contract. And they have no homegrown player
> > earning even as much as the lowest paid of the 5 homegrown guys on the
> > A's list I showed above. NONE.
>
> > It should be obvious to anyone (and I think it is obvious to everyone
> > but you), that the A's are among the BEST and MOST DESIRABLE teams
> > for a young player to get drafted by. They give a kid a much better
> > shot at making the majors young, making millions young--and all while
> > playing for a quality, winning franchise with post-season
> > aspirations. And if you're in the majors young, you become eligible
> > for free-agency at an earlier age. And that means a longer period of
> > earning the big bucks in the major league free-agent market. And that
> > translates to GREATER LIFETIME EARNINGS. It doesn't get any better
> > than that.
>
> > Being signed by the A's is the best thing that could possibly have
> > happed to Barry Zito and Jason Giambi. If they'd spent an extra year
> > or two in the minors with Boston or New York, they wouldn't have
> > become unrestricted free-agents until AFTER they'd started to decline,
> > and therefore might have missed out on the insane (and stupid) bidding
> > war that produced their unbelievable wealth. I admire the A's for
> > not being dumb enough to spend hundreds of millions of dollars
> > outbidding other teams for washed up players, but instead make an
> > effort to hold onto and reward it's homegrown talent for as long as
> > they can.
>
> > And for the record here are the top-10 earners on the Yankees
> > (homegrown talent marked with *):
>
> > Alex Rodriguez $27 million
> > Jason Giambi $21 million
> > *Derek Jeter $20 million
> > Bobby Abreu $16 million
> > Andy Pettitte $16 million
> > *Mariano Rivera rhp $15 million
> > *Jorge Posada $13 million
> > Johnny Damon $13 million
> > Hideki Matsui $13 million
> > Mike Mussina $11.5 million
>
> > Technically, Andy Pettitte was drafted by the Yankees, but was gone
> > several years, then came back as a free-agent, so I'd consider him a
> > free-agent now.
>
> > So, the Yankees are the one team that can afford to go all out and
> > blend the two styles. Keep some homegrown players forever, no matter
> > how expensive, and still sign a ton of free-agents, no matter how
> > expensive. They just signed Robinson Cano to a 4 year, 30 million
> > dollar deal, and he has one less year of service than does Kevin
> > Youkilis, so the Yankees are clearly more generous to young stars than
> > the Red Sox. The point is that the Yankees are the ONLY team to do
> > that. Even the 2nd biggest spending club in baseball, the Red Sox,
> > has to cut corners somewhere, and does it by paying free-agents, not
> > homegrown players.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Dear Sux,
> Thanks for fleshing my statement about the sad opening night
> in Japan by posting names and numbers, and making my point: ""The A's,
> on the other hand, know they will never be paid a major league salary
> until free agency or a trade to an
> organization that recognizes talent with cash." I was not
> distinguishing among draftees, rule 5 draftees, replacement players,
> or players received in trades; rather I was pointing out that the A's
> don't pay for talent. Your numbers have the Yanks at about $150
> million, the Red Sox at about $110 million; the A's? About $38
> million, almost a third of which goes to one player, Eric Chavez,
> which may have ownership gnashing its false teeth. False and cheap
> ownership.

But Russ, the guys on the A's list are primarily YOUNG players. They
are being paid FAIR MARKET SALARIES for players of their age and
accomplishments. They are multi-millionaires in their mid-20s,
despite not being perennial all-stars or MVP candidates. I showed you
how the Red Sox do not compensate comparable young players any better
than the A's. There are no Manny Ramirez or Alex Rodriguez or Curt
Schilling types on the A's list. What the A's don't do is go out and
bid against the Yankees and Red Sox to pay upper echelon free-agents
100s of millions of dollars and fill their lineup with those guys
instead of bright young stars. Whoopdeedee! Did this young, and well-
compensated group of A's appear over-matched by the Boston Red Sox in
Tokyo? Did they look over-matched last season in splitting the season
series with the Red Sox? No, and no again. There is no conspiracy by
A's management against the players on their team. In fact, one could
argue that the only financial losers of the A's policies are the Manny
Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez types, as in order for the A's to have a
lineup like the Red Sox or Yankees, they'd have to outbid those teams,
meaning paying Manny MORE than the $20 million Boston is paying
him...

> One of the reasons I like rooting for the A's is that they must
> not merely do what they can against their opponents on the field; they
> must also fight the cheap philosophy of ownership. It was great to see
> Rich Harden dominate the Red Sox in Game 2. Enjoy him while he's an A,
> Sux; he won't be for very long, either sent to the trash heap by
> injuries or traded by becoming eligible for market-value pay.

Would YOU want to give Rich Harden a guaranteed $100 million dollars
of YOUR money to pitch the next 7 years for you? Given his 50 or so
major league decisions, I think he's getting a very generous salary,
and owes the A's (and us, the people who actually fork over his pay) a
heckuva lot of good pitching these next two seasons he's under
contract (club option at 7 million next year). I'll let the A's
evaluate their risk reward at that point and if he goes, he goes.
While Beane has made some blunders, his track record at evaluating
talent, young and old, is second to none.
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

> rbbomber DeleteThis @netzero.com wrote:
> Dear Sux,
> Thanks for fleshing my statement about the sad opening night
> in Japan by posting names and numbers, and making my point: ""The A's,
> on the other hand, know they will never be paid a major league salary
> until free agency or a trade to an
> organization that recognizes talent with cash." I was not
> distinguishing among draftees, rule 5 draftees, replacement players,
> or players received in trades; rather I was pointing out that the A's
> don't pay for talent. Your numbers have the Yanks at about $150
> million, the Red Sox at about $110 million; the A's? About $38
> million, almost a third of which goes to one player, Eric Chavez,
> which may have ownership gnashing its false teeth. False and cheap
> ownership.

With all due respect, Russ, I also read your statements as having more
to do with the players being short-changed, not the overall payroll
numbers. Thisplanetsux effectively refuted your assertion, IMHO.

Also, your assertion that they refuse to pay market money is flat-out
incorrect. Chavez gets market money*. Jermain Dye got market money.
Giambi was eventually offered what he asked for before he showed
himself as the person of questionable character that he is and raised
the ante. No, they offer market money when they feel it's prudent to
do so, not "just because". What you seem to want is for them to piss
away money as if it's water without regard to whether or not it's a
smart idea.

In hindsight, I'm glad Giambi was a louse... the A's dodged a bullet on
that one.

* - "Market money" being defined for at the time the contract was
signed.

> One of the reasons I like rooting for the A's is that they must
> not merely do what they can against their opponents on the field; they
> must also fight the cheap philosophy of ownership. It was great to see
> Rich Harden dominate the Red Sox in Game 2. Enjoy him while he's an A,
> Sux; he won't be for very long, either sent to the trash heap by
> injuries or traded by becoming eligible for market-value pay.

I still don't understand... you like it, but you're complaining about
it.
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

On Mar 28, 10:26 pm, thisplanetsux <thisplanet....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 4:47 pm, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 10:44 am, thisplanetsux <thisplanet....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 27, 6:45 am, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 26, 1:28 pm, The Dave© <n....TakeThisOut@no.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > "The A's, on the other hand, know they will
> > > > > > never be paid a major league salary until free agency or a trade to an
> > > > > > organization that recognizes talent with cash."
>
> > > > > You describe a good thing, actually.  What's the alternative?  Get
> > > > > stuck at AAA in the Yankees organization because they keep signing
> > > > > overpriced stars that rarely pan out, thus blocking a realistic shot at
> > > > > the big leagues?  I'd bet there are players in some organizations that
> > > > > would absolutely LOVE to play for the A's because they know it's an
> > > > > honest shot to establish themselves.
>
> > > > I need a little clarification on the above post, Dave. Yes it's
> > > > possible for a good upcoming ballplayer to be stuck at AAA in the
> > > > Yankee organization because of the Steinbrenners' spending policies.
> > > > It's also possible for a good ballplayer to be stuck  in the minors in
> > > > the A's organization because of the A's non-spending policies, as they
> > > > pick up replacement players at waiver-wire prices. Six-of-one-half-a-
> > > > dozen of the other, I'd say. Meanwhile, let's have talent rewarded,
> > > >        --as ever, Russ
>
> > > Russ, there's no arguing that the A's are a frugal outfit.  But your
> > > contention that young players don't or shouldn't want to come up with
> > > the A's is nonsense.  Here, from top to bottom, are the 10 highest
> > > paid players on the A's, with their '08 salary (in base pay, ignoring
> > > incentive bonus):
>
> > > *Eric Chavez $11 million
> > > Mark Ellis $5 million
> > > *Rich Harden $4.5 million
> > > *Joe Blanton $3.7 million
> > > *Bobby Crosby $3.5 million
> > > *Huston Street $3.3 million
> > > Alan Embree $2.75 million
> > > Chad Gaudin $1.75 million
> > > Emil Brown $1.45 million
> > > Justin Duchscherer $1.2 million
>
> > > * = drafted by Oakland (Emil Brown was originally drafted by the A's,
> > > but we'll consider him a free-agent)
>
> > > Now, for comparison, here is the same top-10 list of the Boston Red
> > > Sox:
>
> > > Manny Ramirez $20 million
> > > J.D. Drew $14 million
> > > David Ortiz $13 million
> > > Mike Lowell $12.5 million
> > > Jason Varitek $10 million
> > > Josh Beckett $10 million
> > > Julio Lugo $9 million
> > > Daisuke Matsuzaka $8.5 million
> > > Curt Schilling $8 million
> > > Coco Crisp $5.2 million
>
> > > None of these players were drafted by Boston.  The point you keep
> > > making that young players would rather be picked up by teams other
> > > than Oakland doesn't have any merit.  Why would you want to be a young
> > > player on Boston, like say Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon, or
> > > Dustin Pedroia?  They see that the team focuses it's wealth on guys
> > > from outside the organization to build it's long-term, high-salary
> > > lineup, while young players have tended to only stick around while
> > > they can be taken advantage of for cheap:
>
> > > Kevin Youkilis $3 million (just signed 1 year contract)
> > > Jonathan Papelbon  $775 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)
> > > Dustin Pedroia $450 thousand (just signed 1 year contract)
>
> > > Sure, these are good young players that the Red Sox might give a big
> > > contract to later on.  But the Red Sox have no history of doing that..
> > > They have zero players on their payroll that came up with them that
> > > are signed to a long-term contract.  And they have no homegrown player
> > > earning even as much as the lowest paid of the 5 homegrown guys on the
> > > A's list I showed above. NONE.
>
> > > It should be obvious to anyone (and I think it is obvious to everyone
> > > but you), that the A's are  among the BEST and MOST DESIRABLE teams
> > > for a young player to get drafted by.  They give a kid a much better
> > > shot at making the majors young, making millions young--and all while
> > > playing for a quality, winning franchise with post-season
> > > aspirations.  And if you're in the majors young, you become eligible
> > > for free-agency at an earlier age.  And that means a  longer period of
> > > earning the big bucks in the major league free-agent market.  And that
> > > translates to GREATER LIFETIME EARNINGS.  It doesn't get any better
> > > than that.
>
> > > Being signed by the A's is the best thing that could possibly have
> > > happed to Barry Zito and Jason Giambi.  If they'd spent an extra year
> > > or two in the minors with Boston or New York, they wouldn't have
> > > become unrestricted free-agents until AFTER they'd started to decline,
> > > and therefore might have missed out on the insane (and stupid) bidding
> > > war that produced their unbelievable wealth.  I  admire the A's for
> > > not being dumb enough to spend hundreds of millions of dollars
> > > outbidding other teams for washed up players, but instead make an
> > > effort to hold onto and reward it's homegrown talent for as long as
> > > they can.
>
> > > And for the record here are the top-10 earners on the Yankees
> > > (homegrown talent marked with *):
>
> > > Alex Rodriguez $27 million
> > > Jason Giambi $21 million
> > > *Derek Jeter $20 million
> > > Bobby Abreu $16 million
> > > Andy Pettitte $16 million
> > > *Mariano Rivera rhp $15 million
> > > *Jorge Posada $13 million
> > > Johnny Damon $13 million
> > > Hideki Matsui $13 million
> > > Mike Mussina $11.5 million
>
> > > Technically, Andy Pettitte was drafted by the Yankees, but was gone
> > > several years, then came back as a free-agent, so I'd consider him a
> > > free-agent now.
>
> > > So, the Yankees are the one team that can afford to go all out and
> > > blend the two styles.  Keep some homegrown players forever, no matter
> > > how expensive, and still sign a ton of free-agents, no matter how
> > > expensive.  They just signed Robinson Cano to a 4 year, 30 million
> > > dollar deal, and he has one less year of service than does Kevin
> > > Youkilis, so the Yankees are clearly more generous to young stars than
> > > the Red Sox. The point is that the Yankees are the ONLY team to do
> > > that.  Even the 2nd biggest spending club in baseball, the Red Sox,
> > > has to cut corners somewhere, and does it by paying free-agents, not
> > > homegrown players.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Dear Sux,
> >         Thanks for fleshing my statement about the sad opening night
> > in Japan by posting names and numbers, and making my point: ""The A's,
> > on the other hand, know they will never be paid a major league salary
> > until free agency or a trade to an
> > organization that recognizes talent with cash." I was not
> > distinguishing among draftees, rule 5 draftees, replacement players,
> > or players received in trades; rather I was pointing out that the A's
> > don't pay for talent. Your numbers have the Yanks at about $150
> > million, the Red Sox at about $110 million; the A's? About $38
> > million, almost a third of which goes to one player, Eric Chavez,
> > which may have ownership gnashing its false teeth. False and cheap
> > ownership.
>
> But Russ, the guys on the A's list are primarily YOUNG players.   They
> are being paid FAIR MARKET SALARIES for players of their age and
> accomplishments.  They are multi-millionaires in their mid-20s,
> despite not being perennial all-stars or MVP candidates.  I showed you
> how the Red Sox do not compensate comparable young players any better
> than the A's.  There are no Manny Ramirez or Alex Rodriguez or Curt
> Schilling types on the A's list.  What the A's don't do is go out and
> bid against the Yankees and Red Sox to pay upper echelon free-agents
> 100s of millions of dollars and fill their lineup with those guys
> instead of bright young stars.  Whoopdeedee!  Did this young, and well-
> compensated group of A's appear over-matched by the Boston Red Sox in
> Tokyo?  Did they look over-matched last season in splitting the season
> series with the Red Sox?  No, and no again.  There is no conspiracy by
> A's management against the players on their team. In fact, one could
> argue that the only financial losers of the A's policies are the Manny
> Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez types, as in order for the A's to have a
> lineup like the Red Sox or Yankees, they'd have to outbid those teams,
> meaning paying Manny MORE than the  $20 million Boston is paying
> him...
>
> >        One of the reasons I like rooting for the A's is that they must
> > not merely do what they can against their opponents on the field; they
> > must also fight the cheap philosophy of ownership. It was great to see
> > Rich Harden dominate the Red Sox in Game 2. Enjoy him while he's an A,
> > Sux; he won't be for very long, either sent to the trash heap by
> > injuries or traded by becoming eligible for market-value pay.
>
> Would YOU want to give Rich Harden a guaranteed $100 million dollars
> of YOUR money to pitch the next 7 years for you?  Given his 50 or so
> major league decisions, I think he's getting a very generous salary,
> and owes the A's (and us, the people who actually fork over his pay) a
> heckuva lot of good pitching these next two seasons he's under
> contract (club option at 7 million next year).  I'll let the A's
> evaluate their risk reward at that point and if he goes, he goes.
> While Beane has made some blunders, his track record at evaluating
> talent, young and old, is second to none.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Dear Dave and Sux,
What do you have against paying market-value salaries for
talent? The A's don't and won't until there's a change of ownership.
What system would you support other than markets? With the lone
exception of Eric Chavez, note that as an A's player approaches the
ability to test the market for his talent he's gone,
--as ever, Russ
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

On Mar 29, 8:36 am, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom... DeleteThis @netzero.com>
wrote:

> Dear Dave and Sux,
> What do you have against paying market-value salaries for
> talent? The A's don't and won't until there's a change of ownership.
> What system would you support other than markets? With the lone
> exception of Eric Chavez, note that as an A's player approaches the
> ability to test the market for his talent he's gone,

Blah blah blah. Another pointless left turn. This all started when
you jumped on the crazy train with Kardex over one tough loss. I
responded specifically to the "you could see in his eyes he wished he
was playing for the other team" junk you were spouting. I'm done with
all this, there's baseball to watch.
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

"thisplanetsux" <thisplanetsux.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3400f27b-1134-4b4f-b1c6-4b2f01729313@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 29, 8:36 am, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Dave and Sux,
>> What do you have against paying market-value salaries for
>> talent? The A's don't and won't until there's a change of ownership.
>> What system would you support other than markets? With the lone
>> exception of Eric Chavez, note that as an A's player approaches the
>> ability to test the market for his talent he's gone,
>
> Blah blah blah. Another pointless left turn. This all started when
> you jumped on the crazy train with Kardex over one tough loss. I
> responded specifically to the "you could see in his eyes he wished he
> was playing for the other team" junk you were spouting. I'm done with
> all this, there's baseball to watch.

thisplanetsux by knockout!

Shooty
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

On Mar 29, 4:30 pm, "Shooty Canseco" <shootycans....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "thisplanetsux" <thisplanet....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3400f27b-1134-4b4f-b1c6-4b2f01729313@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 29, 8:36 am, "rbbom...@netzero.com" <rbbom....TakeThisOut@netzero.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Dear  Dave and Sux,
> >>          What do you have against paying market-value salaries for
> >> talent? The A's don't and won't until there's a change of ownership.
> >> What system would you support other than markets? With the lone
> >> exception of Eric Chavez, note that as an A's player approaches the
> >> ability to test the market for his talent he's gone,
>
> > Blah blah blah.  Another pointless left turn.  This all started when
> > you jumped on the crazy train with Kardex over one tough loss.  I
> > responded specifically to the "you could see in his eyes he wished he
> > was playing for the other team" junk you were spouting.  I'm done with
> > all this, there's baseball to watch.
>
> thisplanetsux by knockout!
>
> Shooty


Dear Dave, Sux, and Shooty,
Didn't you see Joe Blanton's face on opening night in Tokyo?
--as ever, Russ
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

<rbbomber DeleteThis @netzero.com> wrote in message
news:751aede6-503c-44f4-9956-5c9ba18ecf34@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

>Dear Dave, Sux, and Shooty,
>Didn't you see Joe Blanton's face on opening night in Tokyo?
>--as ever, Russ

I did, but what you interpreted as "Gee, I wish I was playing for the Mets!"
looked more to me like "Gosh, I sure could go for a half dozen Meximelts!".

I'm not going to say you were on Kardex's lengthy, unending crazy train, but
I do think there's not much point in trying to discern Joe Blanton's career
aspirations by looking at his face.

Shooty
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

> rbbomber.DeleteThis@netzero.com wrote:
> Dear Dave and Sux,
> What do you have against paying market-value salaries for
> talent? The A's don't and won't until there's a change of ownership.
> What system would you support other than markets? With the lone
> exception of Eric Chavez, note that as an A's player approaches the
> ability to test the market for his talent he's gone,
> --as ever, Russ

Russ, I gave you three specific examples... Chavez, Dye, and Giambi
(they met his offer and Giambi was the one who renegged). I'll give
you another one... Kotsay.
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

> rbbomber.TakeThisOut@netzero.com wrote:
> > Dear Dave, Sux, and Shooty,
> Didn't you see Joe Blanton's face on opening night in Tokyo?
> --as ever, Russ

Looked to me the same as it ever has.

Besides, it was a long trip. In watching the Red Sox/Dodger game
tonight the Sox' tv announcers were talking about how the Sox players
were all saying how physically and emotionally draining the trip was
and how the whole thing seemed unreal. I'm sure the A's players felt
the same way. Facial expressions in a situations such as that is a
poor indicator of what's going through a person's mind.
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening 

On Mar 29, 11:32 pm, The Dave© <n... RemoveThis @no.com> wrote:
> > rbbom... RemoveThis @netzero.com wrote:
> > Dear  Dave and Sux,
> >          What do you have against paying market-value salaries for
> > talent? The A's don't and won't until there's a change of ownership.
> > What system would you support other than markets? With the lone
> > exception of Eric Chavez, note that as an A's player approaches the
> > ability to test the market for his talent he's gone,
> >           --as ever, Russ
>
> Russ, I gave you three specific examples... Chavez, Dye, and Giambi
> (they met his offer and Giambi was the one who renegged).  I'll give
> you another one... Kotsay.


Thanks, Dave, for once again making my point for me. Dye, Giambi, and
Kotsay are gone; Chavez is the exception the A's cheap ownership now
regrets,
--as ever, Russ
 >> Stay informed about: Sad Opening