Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs?

On Aug 3, 8:31 pm, "TomTraubertsBlues" <msmit....TakeThisOut@insightbb.com> wrote:
> What happened to the Big Red Machine?  Maybe it is me, as all of my
> professional teams have been pathetic for a long, long time.
>
> Mike


Thanks to a friend, I will be receiving a 'gift' in the next few days.
The DVD set of the 1975 World Series- IMO the greatest world series
ever played. I remember my Dad telling me during the playoffs that
year "son- don't ever forget what you are watching now and don't take
it for granted because you will never see this again". As a nine year
old though I did take it for granted- Pete- Joe -Tony- Johnny were
going to play forever IMO. How true my Dad's words were- he knew how
special that group was. I will relive those moments again and just
smile and shake my head. The 90 team was a good ball club but it would
have been embarrasing to even compare the two teams. I listen to them
just about every night on the radio but alas I already know at the
beginning of the season how it'll shake out. Going on 19 yrs. and
counting - somebody is/has been doing something wrong for a longggg
time. Every year I hear the same old ding dong head callers on WLW
with their ever present optimism - which is nice I suppose- for ding
dongs. I will know the winner when I see it and it won't be next
season other. {sigh} Nice group- I read it every day- just felt the
need to chime in. Just know that at least one person in the Nati' will
be in front of their tv this weekend watching the greatest team ever
assembled and just shaking my head with a big grin. Take care guys.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

On Aug 4, 11:44 am, "shark...@bright.net" <shark....RemoveThis@bright.net> wrote:
> On Aug 3, 8:31 pm, "TomTraubertsBlues" <msmit....RemoveThis@insightbb.com>
> wrote:> What happened to the Big Red Machine?  Maybe it is me, as all
> of my> professional teams have been pathetic for a long, long time.> >
> Mike
>
> This is 2008.  Lets never forget 1975-76 but lets move on.  I am so
> tired of comparing everyone being compared to Rose, Bench, Tony, and
> Sr.  Jr could never live up to the expectations of the Big Red Machine
> teams.  If he would have won a WS with the Reds, "Why not two?".  I am
> almost glad to see Jr leave and go elsewhere.  He was once a great
> player but age caught up to him.

I was only going to post that one till I read your response Shark.
You baited me so too speak...lol. I understand what year this is and I
don't dare 'compare' simply because you would have to be either
borderline (literally) mentally retarded or just simply not know
baseball. What I 'do' compare though Shark is "playing to win" *
"effort" * "leaving it all on the field" and most important to at
least me is "Hustle". EVERY Reds player can hustle Shark, the majority
just simply 'choose' not to do it. You can make up for many flaws by
hustling- that is all I want to see and I should be able to expect it.
That is not asking much IMO.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
> lesser established players, lots of guys do.  That said, I also don't
> use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle.  Running to first base
> on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
> I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
> one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
> skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the game.
>
> Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.

Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he would
sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of his
speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course- were
solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of itself
I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

On Aug 5, 4:32 pm, BenchMade <gk... DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
> > lesser established players, lots of guys do.  That said, I also don't
> > use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle.  Running to first base
> > on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
> > I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
> > one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
> > skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the game.
>
> > Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.
>
> Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he would
> sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
> have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
> Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of his
> speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
> IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
> an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
> they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
> another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
> Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
> utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course- were
> solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
> that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
> Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
> as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of itself
> I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
> the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
> time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
> since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.

I wasn't saying anything about Pete's baserunning, just making the
point that hustle and showing off are not exclusive. However, since
you bring it up...

Pete Rose was not a good baserunner. He's the perfect example of
someone who is overaggressive on the bases. For his career, he was
successful just 57% of the times he tried to steal. That is just a
terrible rate. Most folks will say that a success rate of 80% is the
break-even point to make it worth your while. If Pete had stolen
bases at that rate, he'd have stolen an additional 80 bases in his
career. Sure, sometimes he took advantage in going first-to-third and
things like that, but that's just part of the equation - many other
times he gave away outs he didn't have to.

IMO, Pete always played hard but he certainly didn't always play
smart. Considering he spent much of his career hitting ahead of three
Hall of Famers, Rose would have actually scored more runs through his
career if he had never attempted a steal or tried to stretch a double
into a triple. Honestly, if you're batting in front of Morgan, Bench,
Perez and Foster, getting thrown out on the bases is the absolute last
thing you want to do.

If you want a Red since Rose, I say that Barry Larkin was hands down a
much better baserunner. Not even close, IMO.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Bob Braun" <oxin....DeleteThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
> "tom dunne" <dunn....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d527f50e-949f-437d-b19c-485d190ed95d@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 4:32 pm, BenchMade <gk....DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
> > > lesser established players, lots of guys do. That said, I also don't
> > > use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle. Running to first base
> > > on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
> > > I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
> > > one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
> > > skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the game..
>
> > > Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.
>
> > Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he would
> > sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
> > have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
> > Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of his
> > speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
> > IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
> > an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
> > they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
> > another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
> > Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
> > utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course- were
> > solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
> > that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
> > Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
> > as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of itself
> > I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
> > the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
> > time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
> > since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.
>
> I wasn't saying anything about Pete's baserunning, just making the
> point that hustle and showing off are not exclusive.  However, since
> you bring it up...
>
> Pete Rose was not a good baserunner.  He's the perfect example of
> someone who is overaggressive on the bases.  For his career, he was
> successful just 57% of the times he tried to steal.  That is just a
> terrible rate.   Most folks will say that a success rate of 80% is the
> break-even point to make it worth your while.  If Pete had stolen
> bases at that rate, he'd have stolen an additional 80 bases in his
> career.  Sure, sometimes he took advantage in going first-to-third and
> things like that, but that's just part of the equation - many other
> times he gave away outs he didn't have to.
>
> IMO, Pete always played hard but he certainly didn't always play
> smart.  Considering he spent much of his career hitting ahead of three
> Hall of Famers, Rose would have actually scored more runs through his
> career if he had never attempted a steal or tried to stretch a double
> into a triple.  Honestly, if you're batting in front of Morgan, Bench,
> Perez and Foster, getting thrown out on the bases is the absolute last
> thing you want to do.
>
> If you want a Red since Rose, I say that Barry Larkin was hands down a
> much better baserunner.  Not even close, IMO.
>
> ************************response******************
> Base running isn't limited to stealing bases.  Taking an extra base is where
> Rose excelled.  That threat, translated into players making hurried and bad
> throws, as well.
>
> His base stealing is inconsequential.  Pete Rose rarely, if ever had the
> 'green light' to steal a base.  The decision to have Pete Rose attempt a
> steal came from the dugout.  In fact Sparky used to belabor the point, the
> ONLY 'green light' on the team was Joe Morgan.
>
> His sprinting to first was indeed a 'look at me' deal.  He did it to catch
> the eye of Fred Hutchinson.  It worked.  Opposing players made fun of it, so
> he kept doing it.
>
> There is nothing wrong with being a hot dog, if you can back it up.  Brandon
> Phillips is a hot dog.  While having flashes of brilliance, he fills voids
> with lip service.  He's starting to take shape as 'I'll be the star, if I
> can eliminate the other stars.'
>
> That doesn't enter the same hemisphere with Pete Rose.  Pete wanted to be
> immersed in stars, and make them all, better.
>
> You can bang Pete Rose, for not being smart with personal decisions, but
> saying he didn't play smart is preposterous.  Compared to Votto & Dunn, he's
> Einstein.

A 'smart' player is one who adjust to the situation - aggressive when
it's appropriate, cautious when it's appropriate. He didn't play
smart, he played aggressive, which manages to look smart when it
works. He sometimes stretch doubles into triples, sure, but being on
third isn't a huge advantage when you've got a murderers row hitting
behind you. The BRM wasn't about manufacturing runs, they were about
mashing the hell out of the ball. Maybe sometimes Rose scored on a
sac fly he wouldn't have. Other times, potential run scoring doubles
amounted to nothing because he'd gotten himself thrown out trying to
take what wasn't there. He hit ahead of literally one of the most
potent lineups in the history of baseball; getting on and *staying
there* is what mattered, not trading outs for an occasional base here
and there. If any team in living memory didn't need a leadoff guy
pressing his luck on the bases, it's that Reds team.

As to the green light issue, that argument makes it worse rather than
better. If a guy is left to run on his own, I see that he might make
bad decisions more frequently. If he only goes when the dugout allows
him, I assume that means in safer or more advantageous situations -
his manager isn't letting him run if he thinks he hasn't got a chance,
right? Even with managerial oversight, Rose failed in those
situations more than 40% of the time. A green light doesn't mean he
was forced to run, it means he was allowed to take a chance and he
converted those chances barely half the time.

Comparing him to Votto and Dunn? Okay: compared to Greg Maddux and
Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose is an idiot.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

"tom dunne" <dunnetg RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d527f50e-949f-437d-b19c-485d190ed95d@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 5, 4:32 pm, BenchMade <gk... RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
> > lesser established players, lots of guys do. That said, I also don't
> > use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle. Running to first base
> > on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
> > I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
> > one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
> > skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the game.
>
> > Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.
>
> Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he would
> sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
> have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
> Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of his
> speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
> IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
> an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
> they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
> another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
> Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
> utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course- were
> solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
> that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
> Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
> as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of itself
> I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
> the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
> time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
> since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.

I wasn't saying anything about Pete's baserunning, just making the
point that hustle and showing off are not exclusive. However, since
you bring it up...

Pete Rose was not a good baserunner. He's the perfect example of
someone who is overaggressive on the bases. For his career, he was
successful just 57% of the times he tried to steal. That is just a
terrible rate. Most folks will say that a success rate of 80% is the
break-even point to make it worth your while. If Pete had stolen
bases at that rate, he'd have stolen an additional 80 bases in his
career. Sure, sometimes he took advantage in going first-to-third and
things like that, but that's just part of the equation - many other
times he gave away outs he didn't have to.

IMO, Pete always played hard but he certainly didn't always play
smart. Considering he spent much of his career hitting ahead of three
Hall of Famers, Rose would have actually scored more runs through his
career if he had never attempted a steal or tried to stretch a double
into a triple. Honestly, if you're batting in front of Morgan, Bench,
Perez and Foster, getting thrown out on the bases is the absolute last
thing you want to do.

If you want a Red since Rose, I say that Barry Larkin was hands down a
much better baserunner. Not even close, IMO.

************************response******************
Base running isn't limited to stealing bases. Taking an extra base is where
Rose excelled. That threat, translated into players making hurried and bad
throws, as well.

His base stealing is inconsequential. Pete Rose rarely, if ever had the
'green light' to steal a base. The decision to have Pete Rose attempt a
steal came from the dugout. In fact Sparky used to belabor the point, the
ONLY 'green light' on the team was Joe Morgan.

His sprinting to first was indeed a 'look at me' deal. He did it to catch
the eye of Fred Hutchinson. It worked. Opposing players made fun of it, so
he kept doing it.

There is nothing wrong with being a hot dog, if you can back it up. Brandon
Phillips is a hot dog. While having flashes of brilliance, he fills voids
with lip service. He's starting to take shape as 'I'll be the star, if I
can eliminate the other stars.'

That doesn't enter the same hemisphere with Pete Rose. Pete wanted to be
immersed in stars, and make them all, better.

You can bang Pete Rose, for not being smart with personal decisions, but
saying he didn't play smart is preposterous. Compared to Votto & Dunn, he's
Einstein.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

On Aug 5, 11:19 pm, "Bob Braun" <oxin....DeleteThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
> >As to the green light issue, that argument makes it worse rather than
> >better.  If a guy is left to run on his own, I see that he might make
> >bad decisions more frequently.  If he only goes when the dugout allows
> >him, I assume that means in safer or more advantageous situations -
> >his manager isn't letting him run if he thinks he hasn't got a chance,
> >right?  Even with managerial oversight, Rose failed in those
> >situations more than 40% of the time.  A green light doesn't mean he
> >was forced to run, it means he was allowed to take a chance and he
> >converted those chances barely half the time.
>
> Huh?  The 'green light' means he can attempt a steal anytime he feels it is
> appropriate.
> Morgan was the only player afforded that privilege.
>
> Rose was running when given the sign to run.  The dugout is not 'allowing'
> him to
> run, they are TELLING him to run.  That's not 'if you happen to feel like
> it'.
> You are to run on the next pitch, period!  It has nothing to do with the
> smarts of
> the player.
>
> If Dusty Baker tells Valentine to steal 10 times, and he gets thrown out 8
> of them,
> that doesn't make Valentine the dummy.
>
> Rose sparked rallys, he didn't kill them.  Give me a stat citing how often
> Rose made
> the 1st or 3rd out at third base.  Anderson encouraged aggressive play, and
> nobody
> can argue the results.

Nope, I've got to yield to your age on this one. I've only watched
Rose's games on tape, read about him and looked at his numbers. It's
a shame we can't have valid opinions on players we didn't see play in
person, but that's the rule. Thanks for calling me on that one, I
almost forgot my place!
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

"tom dunne" <dunnetg.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a526741a-c464-4c41-8076-e3e958e69d5b@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Bob Braun" <oxin....DeleteThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
> "tom dunne" <dunn....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d527f50e-949f-437d-b19c-485d190ed95d@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 4:32 pm, BenchMade <gk....DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
> > > lesser established players, lots of guys do. That said, I also don't
> > > use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle. Running to first base
> > > on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
> > > I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
> > > one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
> > > skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the game.
>
> > > Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.
>
> > Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he would
> > sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
> > have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
> > Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of his
> > speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
> > IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
> > an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
> > they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
> > another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
> > Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
> > utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course- were
> > solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
> > that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
> > Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
> > as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of itself
> > I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
> > the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
> > time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
> > since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.
>
> I wasn't saying anything about Pete's baserunning, just making the
> point that hustle and showing off are not exclusive. However, since
> you bring it up...
>
> Pete Rose was not a good baserunner. He's the perfect example of
> someone who is overaggressive on the bases. For his career, he was
> successful just 57% of the times he tried to steal. That is just a
> terrible rate. Most folks will say that a success rate of 80% is the
> break-even point to make it worth your while. If Pete had stolen
> bases at that rate, he'd have stolen an additional 80 bases in his
> career. Sure, sometimes he took advantage in going first-to-third and
> things like that, but that's just part of the equation - many other
> times he gave away outs he didn't have to.
>
> IMO, Pete always played hard but he certainly didn't always play
> smart. Considering he spent much of his career hitting ahead of three
> Hall of Famers, Rose would have actually scored more runs through his
> career if he had never attempted a steal or tried to stretch a double
> into a triple. Honestly, if you're batting in front of Morgan, Bench,
> Perez and Foster, getting thrown out on the bases is the absolute last
> thing you want to do.
>
> If you want a Red since Rose, I say that Barry Larkin was hands down a
> much better baserunner. Not even close, IMO.
>
> ************************response******************
> Base running isn't limited to stealing bases. Taking an extra base is
> where
> Rose excelled. That threat, translated into players making hurried and bad
> throws, as well.
>
> His base stealing is inconsequential. Pete Rose rarely, if ever had the
> 'green light' to steal a base. The decision to have Pete Rose attempt a
> steal came from the dugout. In fact Sparky used to belabor the point, the
> ONLY 'green light' on the team was Joe Morgan.
>
> His sprinting to first was indeed a 'look at me' deal. He did it to catch
> the eye of Fred Hutchinson. It worked. Opposing players made fun of it, so
> he kept doing it.
>
> There is nothing wrong with being a hot dog, if you can back it up.
> Brandon
> Phillips is a hot dog. While having flashes of brilliance, he fills voids
> with lip service. He's starting to take shape as 'I'll be the star, if I
> can eliminate the other stars.'
>
> That doesn't enter the same hemisphere with Pete Rose. Pete wanted to be
> immersed in stars, and make them all, better.
>
> You can bang Pete Rose, for not being smart with personal decisions, but
> saying he didn't play smart is preposterous. Compared to Votto & Dunn,
> he's
> Einstein.

A 'smart' player is one who adjust to the situation - aggressive when
it's appropriate, cautious when it's appropriate. He didn't play
smart, he played aggressive, which manages to look smart when it
works. He sometimes stretch doubles into triples, sure, but being on
third isn't a huge advantage when you've got a murderers row hitting
behind you. The BRM wasn't about manufacturing runs, they were about
mashing the hell out of the ball. Maybe sometimes Rose scored on a
sac fly he wouldn't have. Other times, potential run scoring doubles
amounted to nothing because he'd gotten himself thrown out trying to
take what wasn't there. He hit ahead of literally one of the most
potent lineups in the history of baseball; getting on and *staying
there* is what mattered, not trading outs for an occasional base here
and there. If any team in living memory didn't need a leadoff guy
pressing his luck on the bases, it's that Reds team.

As to the green light issue, that argument makes it worse rather than
better. If a guy is left to run on his own, I see that he might make
bad decisions more frequently. If he only goes when the dugout allows
him, I assume that means in safer or more advantageous situations -
his manager isn't letting him run if he thinks he hasn't got a chance,
right? Even with managerial oversight, Rose failed in those
situations more than 40% of the time. A green light doesn't mean he
was forced to run, it means he was allowed to take a chance and he
converted those chances barely half the time.

Comparing him to Votto and Dunn? Okay: compared to Greg Maddux and
Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose is an idiot.

***************************************

How old are you Tom? Did you even watch Pete Rose play in the 70's?
Because your description indicates that you don't know what the hell you are
talking about.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:p5GdnX0_U6cvnQTVnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "tom dunne" <dunnetg.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a526741a-c464-4c41-8076-e3e958e69d5b@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Bob Braun" <oxin....RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>> "tom dunne" <dunn....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:d527f50e-949f-437d-b19c-485d190ed95d@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 5, 4:32 pm, BenchMade <gk....RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
>> > > lesser established players, lots of guys do. That said, I also don't
>> > > use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle. Running to first base
>> > > on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
>> > > I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
>> > > one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
>> > > skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the
>> > > game.
>>
>> > > Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.
>>
>> > Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he would
>> > sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
>> > have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
>> > Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of his
>> > speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
>> > IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
>> > an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
>> > they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
>> > another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
>> > Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
>> > utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course- were
>> > solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
>> > that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
>> > Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
>> > as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of itself
>> > I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
>> > the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
>> > time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
>> > since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.
>>
>> I wasn't saying anything about Pete's baserunning, just making the
>> point that hustle and showing off are not exclusive. However, since
>> you bring it up...
>>
>> Pete Rose was not a good baserunner. He's the perfect example of
>> someone who is overaggressive on the bases. For his career, he was
>> successful just 57% of the times he tried to steal. That is just a
>> terrible rate. Most folks will say that a success rate of 80% is the
>> break-even point to make it worth your while. If Pete had stolen
>> bases at that rate, he'd have stolen an additional 80 bases in his
>> career. Sure, sometimes he took advantage in going first-to-third and
>> things like that, but that's just part of the equation - many other
>> times he gave away outs he didn't have to.
>>
>> IMO, Pete always played hard but he certainly didn't always play
>> smart. Considering he spent much of his career hitting ahead of three
>> Hall of Famers, Rose would have actually scored more runs through his
>> career if he had never attempted a steal or tried to stretch a double
>> into a triple. Honestly, if you're batting in front of Morgan, Bench,
>> Perez and Foster, getting thrown out on the bases is the absolute last
>> thing you want to do.
>>
>> If you want a Red since Rose, I say that Barry Larkin was hands down a
>> much better baserunner. Not even close, IMO.
>>
>> ************************response******************
>> Base running isn't limited to stealing bases. Taking an extra base is
>> where
>> Rose excelled. That threat, translated into players making hurried and
>> bad
>> throws, as well.
>>
>> His base stealing is inconsequential. Pete Rose rarely, if ever had the
>> 'green light' to steal a base. The decision to have Pete Rose attempt a
>> steal came from the dugout. In fact Sparky used to belabor the point, the
>> ONLY 'green light' on the team was Joe Morgan.
>>
>> His sprinting to first was indeed a 'look at me' deal. He did it to catch
>> the eye of Fred Hutchinson. It worked. Opposing players made fun of it,
>> so
>> he kept doing it.
>>
>> There is nothing wrong with being a hot dog, if you can back it up.
>> Brandon
>> Phillips is a hot dog. While having flashes of brilliance, he fills voids
>> with lip service. He's starting to take shape as 'I'll be the star, if I
>> can eliminate the other stars.'
>>
>> That doesn't enter the same hemisphere with Pete Rose. Pete wanted to be
>> immersed in stars, and make them all, better.
>>
>> You can bang Pete Rose, for not being smart with personal decisions, but
>> saying he didn't play smart is preposterous. Compared to Votto & Dunn,
>> he's
>> Einstein.
>
> A 'smart' player is one who adjust to the situation - aggressive when
> it's appropriate, cautious when it's appropriate. He didn't play
> smart, he played aggressive, which manages to look smart when it
> works. He sometimes stretch doubles into triples, sure, but being on
> third isn't a huge advantage when you've got a murderers row hitting
> behind you. The BRM wasn't about manufacturing runs, they were about
> mashing the hell out of the ball. Maybe sometimes Rose scored on a
> sac fly he wouldn't have. Other times, potential run scoring doubles
> amounted to nothing because he'd gotten himself thrown out trying to
> take what wasn't there. He hit ahead of literally one of the most
> potent lineups in the history of baseball; getting on and *staying
> there* is what mattered, not trading outs for an occasional base here
> and there. If any team in living memory didn't need a leadoff guy
> pressing his luck on the bases, it's that Reds team.
>
> As to the green light issue, that argument makes it worse rather than
> better. If a guy is left to run on his own, I see that he might make
> bad decisions more frequently. If he only goes when the dugout allows
> him, I assume that means in safer or more advantageous situations -
> his manager isn't letting him run if he thinks he hasn't got a chance,
> right? Even with managerial oversight, Rose failed in those
> situations more than 40% of the time. A green light doesn't mean he
> was forced to run, it means he was allowed to take a chance and he
> converted those chances barely half the time.
>
> Comparing him to Votto and Dunn? Okay: compared to Greg Maddux and
> Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose is an idiot.
>
> ***************************************
>
> How old are you Tom? Did you even watch Pete Rose play in the 70's?
> Because your description indicates that you don't know what the hell you
> are talking about.
>

LOL I miss Johnny Bench , saw an old tape of him the other day... He was
incredible, I had forgotten how far above today's catchers he was in his
prime! I didn't watch tonight's game, but checking the score our new ace
has really sucked since the all star game
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

"Chuck" <chuckw417.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Ep7mk.5131$Ep1.326@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla.TakeThisOut@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
> news:p5GdnX0_U6cvnQTVnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "tom dunne" <dunnetg.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:a526741a-c464-4c41-8076-e3e958e69d5b@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Bob Braun" <oxin....TakeThisOut@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>> "tom dunne" <dunn....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:d527f50e-949f-437d-b19c-485d190ed95d@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Aug 5, 4:32 pm, BenchMade <gk....TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
>>> > > lesser established players, lots of guys do. That said, I also don't
>>> > > use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle. Running to first
>>> > > base
>>> > > on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
>>> > > I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
>>> > > one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
>>> > > skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the
>>> > > game.
>>>
>>> > > Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.
>>>
>>> > Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he would
>>> > sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
>>> > have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
>>> > Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of his
>>> > speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
>>> > IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
>>> > an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
>>> > they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
>>> > another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
>>> > Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
>>> > utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course- were
>>> > solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
>>> > that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
>>> > Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
>>> > as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of itself
>>> > I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
>>> > the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
>>> > time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
>>> > since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.
>>>
>>> I wasn't saying anything about Pete's baserunning, just making the
>>> point that hustle and showing off are not exclusive. However, since
>>> you bring it up...
>>>
>>> Pete Rose was not a good baserunner. He's the perfect example of
>>> someone who is overaggressive on the bases. For his career, he was
>>> successful just 57% of the times he tried to steal. That is just a
>>> terrible rate. Most folks will say that a success rate of 80% is the
>>> break-even point to make it worth your while. If Pete had stolen
>>> bases at that rate, he'd have stolen an additional 80 bases in his
>>> career. Sure, sometimes he took advantage in going first-to-third and
>>> things like that, but that's just part of the equation - many other
>>> times he gave away outs he didn't have to.
>>>
>>> IMO, Pete always played hard but he certainly didn't always play
>>> smart. Considering he spent much of his career hitting ahead of three
>>> Hall of Famers, Rose would have actually scored more runs through his
>>> career if he had never attempted a steal or tried to stretch a double
>>> into a triple. Honestly, if you're batting in front of Morgan, Bench,
>>> Perez and Foster, getting thrown out on the bases is the absolute last
>>> thing you want to do.
>>>
>>> If you want a Red since Rose, I say that Barry Larkin was hands down a
>>> much better baserunner. Not even close, IMO.
>>>
>>> ************************response******************
>>> Base running isn't limited to stealing bases. Taking an extra base is
>>> where
>>> Rose excelled. That threat, translated into players making hurried and
>>> bad
>>> throws, as well.
>>>
>>> His base stealing is inconsequential. Pete Rose rarely, if ever had the
>>> 'green light' to steal a base. The decision to have Pete Rose attempt a
>>> steal came from the dugout. In fact Sparky used to belabor the point,
>>> the
>>> ONLY 'green light' on the team was Joe Morgan.
>>>
>>> His sprinting to first was indeed a 'look at me' deal. He did it to
>>> catch
>>> the eye of Fred Hutchinson. It worked. Opposing players made fun of it,
>>> so
>>> he kept doing it.
>>>
>>> There is nothing wrong with being a hot dog, if you can back it up.
>>> Brandon
>>> Phillips is a hot dog. While having flashes of brilliance, he fills
>>> voids
>>> with lip service. He's starting to take shape as 'I'll be the star, if I
>>> can eliminate the other stars.'
>>>
>>> That doesn't enter the same hemisphere with Pete Rose. Pete wanted to be
>>> immersed in stars, and make them all, better.
>>>
>>> You can bang Pete Rose, for not being smart with personal decisions, but
>>> saying he didn't play smart is preposterous. Compared to Votto & Dunn,
>>> he's
>>> Einstein.
>>
>> A 'smart' player is one who adjust to the situation - aggressive when
>> it's appropriate, cautious when it's appropriate. He didn't play
>> smart, he played aggressive, which manages to look smart when it
>> works. He sometimes stretch doubles into triples, sure, but being on
>> third isn't a huge advantage when you've got a murderers row hitting
>> behind you. The BRM wasn't about manufacturing runs, they were about
>> mashing the hell out of the ball. Maybe sometimes Rose scored on a
>> sac fly he wouldn't have. Other times, potential run scoring doubles
>> amounted to nothing because he'd gotten himself thrown out trying to
>> take what wasn't there. He hit ahead of literally one of the most
>> potent lineups in the history of baseball; getting on and *staying
>> there* is what mattered, not trading outs for an occasional base here
>> and there. If any team in living memory didn't need a leadoff guy
>> pressing his luck on the bases, it's that Reds team.
>>
>> As to the green light issue, that argument makes it worse rather than
>> better. If a guy is left to run on his own, I see that he might make
>> bad decisions more frequently. If he only goes when the dugout allows
>> him, I assume that means in safer or more advantageous situations -
>> his manager isn't letting him run if he thinks he hasn't got a chance,
>> right? Even with managerial oversight, Rose failed in those
>> situations more than 40% of the time. A green light doesn't mean he
>> was forced to run, it means he was allowed to take a chance and he
>> converted those chances barely half the time.
>>
>> Comparing him to Votto and Dunn? Okay: compared to Greg Maddux and
>> Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose is an idiot.
>>
>> ***************************************
>>
>> How old are you Tom? Did you even watch Pete Rose play in the 70's?
>> Because your description indicates that you don't know what the hell you
>> are talking about.
>>
>
> LOL I miss Johnny Bench , saw an old tape of him the other day... He was
> incredible, I had forgotten how far above today's catchers he was in his
> prime! I didn't watch tonight's game, but checking the score our new
> ace has really sucked since the all star game

Yup. Arroyo has probably been the best since the break. This franchise is
a wreck.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs? 

"Bob Braun" <oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
news:d-qdnWKg8fiFmATVnZ2dnUVZ_trinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Chuck" <chuckw417.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Ep7mk.5131$Ep1.326@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote in message
>> news:p5GdnX0_U6cvnQTVnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "tom dunne" <dunnetg.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:a526741a-c464-4c41-8076-e3e958e69d5b@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Bob Braun" <oxin....RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>> "tom dunne" <dunn....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:d527f50e-949f-437d-b19c-485d190ed95d@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Aug 5, 4:32 pm, BenchMade <gk....RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Aug 5, 3:30 pm, tom dunne <dunn....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > > I can see that a lot of stars don't hustle, but amongst younger or
>>>> > > lesser established players, lots of guys do. That said, I also
>>>> > > don't
>>>> > > use Pete Rose as my measuring stick for hustle. Running to first
>>>> > > base
>>>> > > on a walk is nothing about winning games and all about "look @ me."
>>>> > > I'd rather have a player like Tony Gwynn (preferrably a less hefty
>>>> > > one) who spends tons of hours in preparation and improving his
>>>> > > skillset for the game than have one who goes kamikaze during the
>>>> > > game.
>>>>
>>>> > > Granted, I don't think the Reds have either of these kinds of guys.
>>>>
>>>> > Tom - Pete set the bar by letting the opposing team know that he
>>>> > would
>>>> > sprint to first base - was there hot dog involved? Of course. But I
>>>> > have 'never' and I think Marty B. said almost the same thing - that
>>>> > Peter Rose was 'The Best' baserunner he/I ever saw. Not because of
>>>> > his
>>>> > speed but because of his hustle. Case in point IMO- there has yet to
>>>> > IMO be another ball player since Pete that consistently will pressure
>>>> > an outfielder to charge the ball and make a quick throw EVERY time
>>>> > they are running towards first after a base hit. I have 'never' seen
>>>> > another ball player- none- that could go from first to third like
>>>> > Pete- it is an uncanny knowledge that todays players may have but not
>>>> > utilize 'every' time. Very few of Pete's triples - IMO of course-
>>>> > were
>>>> > solid triples where they were no doubters. My guess would estimate
>>>> > that over 45-50% were just doubles that Pete 'imposed' into triples.
>>>> > Again- this is all my opinion. But at the time he was underestimated
>>>> > as a baserunner but now that time and history has taken care of
>>>> > itself
>>>> > I feel it is safe to say that Pete Rose -IMO- was the best baserunner
>>>> > the Cincinnati Reds ever had and potentially in the top five of all
>>>> > time. Again just my opinion- but I would dare someone to name a Red
>>>> > since Pete that it even was a discussion worth having.
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't saying anything about Pete's baserunning, just making the
>>>> point that hustle and showing off are not exclusive. However, since
>>>> you bring it up...
>>>>
>>>> Pete Rose was not a good baserunner. He's the perfect example of
>>>> someone who is overaggressive on the bases. For his career, he was
>>>> successful just 57% of the times he tried to steal. That is just a
>>>> terrible rate. Most folks will say that a success rate of 80% is the
>>>> break-even point to make it worth your while. If Pete had stolen
>>>> bases at that rate, he'd have stolen an additional 80 bases in his
>>>> career. Sure, sometimes he took advantage in going first-to-third and
>>>> things like that, but that's just part of the equation - many other
>>>> times he gave away outs he didn't have to.
>>>>
>>>> IMO, Pete always played hard but he certainly didn't always play
>>>> smart. Considering he spent much of his career hitting ahead of three
>>>> Hall of Famers, Rose would have actually scored more runs through his
>>>> career if he had never attempted a steal or tried to stretch a double
>>>> into a triple. Honestly, if you're batting in front of Morgan, Bench,
>>>> Perez and Foster, getting thrown out on the bases is the absolute last
>>>> thing you want to do.
>>>>
>>>> If you want a Red since Rose, I say that Barry Larkin was hands down a
>>>> much better baserunner. Not even close, IMO.
>>>>
>>>> ************************response******************
>>>> Base running isn't limited to stealing bases. Taking an extra base is
>>>> where
>>>> Rose excelled. That threat, translated into players making hurried and
>>>> bad
>>>> throws, as well.
>>>>
>>>> His base stealing is inconsequential. Pete Rose rarely, if ever had the
>>>> 'green light' to steal a base. The decision to have Pete Rose attempt a
>>>> steal came from the dugout. In fact Sparky used to belabor the point,
>>>> the
>>>> ONLY 'green light' on the team was Joe Morgan.
>>>>
>>>> His sprinting to first was indeed a 'look at me' deal. He did it to
>>>> catch
>>>> the eye of Fred Hutchinson. It worked. Opposing players made fun of it,
>>>> so
>>>> he kept doing it.
>>>>
>>>> There is nothing wrong with being a hot dog, if you can back it up.
>>>> Brandon
>>>> Phillips is a hot dog. While having flashes of brilliance, he fills
>>>> voids
>>>> with lip service. He's starting to take shape as 'I'll be the star, if
>>>> I
>>>> can eliminate the other stars.'
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't enter the same hemisphere with Pete Rose. Pete wanted to
>>>> be
>>>> immersed in stars, and make them all, better.
>>>>
>>>> You can bang Pete Rose, for not being smart with personal decisions,
>>>> but
>>>> saying he didn't play smart is preposterous. Compared to Votto & Dunn,
>>>> he's
>>>> Einstein.
>>>
>>> A 'smart' player is one who adjust to the situation - aggressive when
>>> it's appropriate, cautious when it's appropriate. He didn't play
>>> smart, he played aggressive, which manages to look smart when it
>>> works. He sometimes stretch doubles into triples, sure, but being on
>>> third isn't a huge advantage when you've got a murderers row hitting
>>> behind you. The BRM wasn't about manufacturing runs, they were about
>>> mashing the hell out of the ball. Maybe sometimes Rose scored on a
>>> sac fly he wouldn't have. Other times, potential run scoring doubles
>>> amounted to nothing because he'd gotten himself thrown out trying to
>>> take what wasn't there. He hit ahead of literally one of the most
>>> potent lineups in the history of baseball; getting on and *staying
>>> there* is what mattered, not trading outs for an occasional base here
>>> and there. If any team in living memory didn't need a leadoff guy
>>> pressing his luck on the bases, it's that Reds team.
>>>
>>> As to the green light issue, that argument makes it worse rather than
>>> better. If a guy is left to run on his own, I see that he might make
>>> bad decisions more frequently. If he only goes when the dugout allows
>>> him, I assume that means in safer or more advantageous situations -
>>> his manager isn't letting him run if he thinks he hasn't got a chance,
>>> right? Even with managerial oversight, Rose failed in those
>>> situations more than 40% of the time. A green light doesn't mean he
>>> was forced to run, it means he was allowed to take a chance and he
>>> converted those chances barely half the time.
>>>
>>> Comparing him to Votto and Dunn? Okay: compared to Greg Maddux and
>>> Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose is an idiot.
>>>
>>> ***************************************
>>>
>>> How old are you Tom? Did you even watch Pete Rose play in the 70's?
>>> Because your description indicates that you don't know what the hell you
>>> are talking about.
>>>
>>
>> LOL I miss Johnny Bench , saw an old tape of him the other day... He
>> was incredible, I had forgotten how far above today's catchers he was in
>> his prime! I didn't watch tonight's game, but checking the score our
>> new ace has really sucked since the all star game
>
> Yup. Arroyo has probably been the best since the break. This franchise
> is a wreck.
>
>
Don't ya get tired of saying wait till next year? Hell at 57 ya never know
if there is a next year LOL Guess I will pull for sweet Lou,s Cubs!
 >> Stay informed about: Will the Reds be a winning team in the next 10 yrs?