Pete Pete Pete!

On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:13:42 -0700, "Mr. K" <mkersting.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"RJA" <rja.TakeThisOut@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:46914dae$0$24751$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> So with Narron at the helm, this team failed 6 times in a row to win a
>> series. Then Mackanin comes in and you win the first one and sweep the
>> 2nd. Big coincidence, or managerial influence?
>>
>> I've noticed that he puts together a decent lineup (no Gonzalez batting
>> 5th lineups) and he uses the pen quite differently than Narron. One
>> example is Stanton's 2 inning stint last night where he faced guys from
>> both sides of the plate. I couldn't help but think that Narron would have
>> been out there doing his typical lefty/righty switch on every other
>> hitter. He also seems to pull the starter at the right time.
>Narron really annoyed me with his constant RP changes.
>
>Did any of our relievers average an inning per appearance under him?

And this aided in the sub-par performance of the pen, though in the media,
Narron's continued to get a pass for that.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:29:31 -0400, Kevin McClave
<kmcclaveSPAM.DeleteThis@SUCKStwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:13:42 -0700, "Mr. K" <mkersting.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"RJA" <rja.DeleteThis@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:46914dae$0$24751$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>> So with Narron at the helm, this team failed 6 times in a row to win a
>>> series. Then Mackanin comes in and you win the first one and sweep the
>>> 2nd. Big coincidence, or managerial influence?
>>>
>>> I've noticed that he puts together a decent lineup (no Gonzalez batting
>>> 5th lineups) and he uses the pen quite differently than Narron. One
>>> example is Stanton's 2 inning stint last night where he faced guys from
>>> both sides of the plate. I couldn't help but think that Narron would have
>>> been out there doing his typical lefty/righty switch on every other
>>> hitter. He also seems to pull the starter at the right time.
>>Narron really annoyed me with his constant RP changes.
>>
>>Did any of our relievers average an inning per appearance under him?
>
>And this aided in the sub-par performance of the pen, though in the media,
>Narron's continued to get a pass for that.

I'm not sure whether this shows us how clueless the media is, or just
shows us how having access to the manager's office after every game
causes the media to hold its fire even when the manager is begging to
be fired upon (or perhaps just plain fired, period).

John D, Kasupski, Tonawanda, NY
Reds Fan Since The 1960's
http://www.kc2hmz.net
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:14:15 -0400, John Kasupski <kc2hmz DeleteThis @wzrd.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:29:31 -0400, Kevin McClave
><kmcclaveSPAM DeleteThis @SUCKStwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:13:42 -0700, "Mr. K" <mkersting DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"RJA" <rja DeleteThis @nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>news:46914dae$0$24751$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>> So with Narron at the helm, this team failed 6 times in a row to win a
>>>> series. Then Mackanin comes in and you win the first one and sweep the
>>>> 2nd. Big coincidence, or managerial influence?
>>>>
>>>> I've noticed that he puts together a decent lineup (no Gonzalez batting
>>>> 5th lineups) and he uses the pen quite differently than Narron. One
>>>> example is Stanton's 2 inning stint last night where he faced guys from
>>>> both sides of the plate. I couldn't help but think that Narron would have
>>>> been out there doing his typical lefty/righty switch on every other
>>>> hitter. He also seems to pull the starter at the right time.
>>>Narron really annoyed me with his constant RP changes.
>>>
>>>Did any of our relievers average an inning per appearance under him?
>>
>>And this aided in the sub-par performance of the pen, though in the media,
>>Narron's continued to get a pass for that.
>
>I'm not sure whether this shows us how clueless the media is, or just
>shows us how having access to the manager's office after every game
>causes the media to hold its fire even when the manager is begging to
>be fired upon (or perhaps just plain fired, period).

I used to work in the media. Did news and sports for five and a half
years on WSYR radio here in Syracuse. Not to fully equate that to
covering a major league team by any means, but while I can appreciate
not wanting to harm your access, I can also clearly see at least asking
those types of questions in the post game. Do we have any indication
that the issue was ever even raised with Jerry? They second-guess
managerial decisions all the time in post-game interviews. I don't think
this is one they ever got, or at least believed.

The short answer is that I think it's more cluelessness in this case.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:28:41 -0400, Kevin McClave
<kmcclave RemoveThis @SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:

>I used to work in the media. Did news and sports for five and a half
>years on WSYR radio here in Syracuse. Not to fully equate that to
>covering a major league team by any means, but while I can appreciate
>not wanting to harm your access, I can also clearly see at least asking
>those types of questions in the post game. Do we have any indication
>that the issue was ever even raised with Jerry? They second-guess
>managerial decisions all the time in post-game interviews. I don't think
>this is one they ever got, or at least believed.

I don't think that's all they missed, either. I'd intended to go
further this morning but then I learned Bailey had been optioned and
cut it short to go read up on that development.

To follow up on what Mr. K posted - Pete yanked Belisle after four
innings of a game he was getting smacked around a bit in. He also
yanked Bailey after five innings in which he allowed two hits and one
run, and he spun it differently, but it's July, it's hot and muggy,
and this is a rookie who was already over 80 pitches after the fifth
inning. If I'm manager, I tell Homer, "Good job, kid, now sit down and
chug some Gatorade and listen to what Dick Pole has to say." Which is
basically what Pete did.

He also deferred to Pole on setting the rotation for after the
all-star break, then admitted to the press that he let Pole tell him
what to do.

Coutlangus came into a game over the weekend right after Coffey let a
lead get away, and got the last out of that inning. In May under
Narron, somebody else comes in to pitch to start the next inning, and
soon three pitchers have been used in the inning and the game has been
lost anyway. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt. OK, Pete left
Coutlangus in there. He struck out the side and ended up as the
winning pitcher. Then there's Stanton's two-inning stint that Mr. K
also noted upthread. Two innings? That's a week's worth of appearances
for Stanton under Narron. Either Pete knows how to handle pitching, or
Dick Pole does and Mackanin at least has enough sense to listen to
him. Either way, Narron didn't get it. This guy gets it.

Although I am a writer, I'm not a sportswriter; but I know this much,
and I imagine you do too, Kevin, with your background. It applies as
much to the Chiefs or the Bisons as it does to the Reds, so from one
media type to another: Even the most junior reporter in town should be
able to walk into the clubhouse, talk to some of the players, and come
out of there with a good story about the manager without ever even
talking to him. If not, that manager's probably not much of a manager.
Now, even when Narron took over for Miley, not a whole lot was written
about the guy, and this year I think I've read more comments from the
players about Mackanin this weekend than I saw on Narron all year.

WTF? None of the players have anything to say about the manager? Alarm
bells should start going off right away, there is something very wrong
with that picture. Something was not right in that clubhouse.

Think about what happened after Narron benched EE for not running out
a ball. OK, it happens. Heck, Manny Acta in Washington benched none
other than newsgroup martyr Felipe Lopez for the same thing back in
June. Thing is that usually, right after it happens one of the other
players comes out and says something like, "We're 100% behind him, you
have to play the game right, yada yada yada." When Narron did it to
EE? Griffey didn't say squat, Dunn didn't say squat, Harang didn't say
squat, Weathers didn't say squat...none of the veteran players you'd
expect to be team leaders had jack to say about it. The silence from
the other Reds players was deafening.

Again, I say something was not right in that clubhouse.

Narron gets fired, and over the weekend, under the guy who Lonnie
Wheeler is now calling "Pete McCanWin" we see Brandon Phillips bunt
his way on, then subsequently tag up on a deep fly and take an extra
base. No big deal, routine play really...except usually the guy is on
second or third, and he's either taking third or turning the out into
a sac fly. Phillips was on first at the time and the base he took on
that deep fly was second base. Relatively speaking, how often do you
see that happen? Never mind that it put him in scoring position, and
Hopper singled him in with the go-ahead run in a game the Reds went on
to win. Why was nobody making plays like that before?

That's the biggest difference I see in this team so far. I have to
wonder if the whole problem with this team before wasn't simply that
Jerry Narron had everybody so tight you couldn't have pulled a needle
out of somebody's ass with a tractor, whereas Pete Mackanin basically
just says, "Go play the game and have fun," knowing full well that
baseball's a lot more fun to play when you're winning.

John D, Kasupski, Tonawanda, NY
Reds Fan Since The 1960's
http://www.kc2hmz.net
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

"John Kasupski" <kc2hmz DeleteThis @wzrd.com> wrote in message
news:gde593lepc0naaqc3d0pbc01v9k0l02ail@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:28:41 -0400, Kevin McClave
> <kmcclave DeleteThis @SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>I used to work in the media. Did news and sports for five and a half
>>years on WSYR radio here in Syracuse. Not to fully equate that to
>>covering a major league team by any means, but while I can appreciate
>>not wanting to harm your access, I can also clearly see at least asking
>>those types of questions in the post game. Do we have any indication
>>that the issue was ever even raised with Jerry? They second-guess
>>managerial decisions all the time in post-game interviews. I don't think
>>this is one they ever got, or at least believed.
>
> I don't think that's all they missed, either. I'd intended to go
> further this morning but then I learned Bailey had been optioned and
> cut it short to go read up on that development.
>
> To follow up on what Mr. K posted - Pete yanked Belisle after four
> innings of a game he was getting smacked around a bit in. He also
> yanked Bailey after five innings in which he allowed two hits and one
> run, and he spun it differently, but it's July, it's hot and muggy,
> and this is a rookie who was already over 80 pitches after the fifth
> inning. If I'm manager, I tell Homer, "Good job, kid, now sit down and
> chug some Gatorade and listen to what Dick Pole has to say." Which is
> basically what Pete did.
>
> He also deferred to Pole on setting the rotation for after the
> all-star break, then admitted to the press that he let Pole tell him
> what to do.
>
> Coutlangus came into a game over the weekend right after Coffey let a
> lead get away, and got the last out of that inning. In May under
> Narron, somebody else comes in to pitch to start the next inning, and
> soon three pitchers have been used in the inning and the game has been
> lost anyway. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt. OK, Pete left
> Coutlangus in there. He struck out the side and ended up as the
> winning pitcher. Then there's Stanton's two-inning stint that Mr. K
> also noted upthread. Two innings? That's a week's worth of appearances
> for Stanton under Narron. Either Pete knows how to handle pitching, or
> Dick Pole does and Mackanin at least has enough sense to listen to
> him. Either way, Narron didn't get it. This guy gets it.
>
> Although I am a writer, I'm not a sportswriter; but I know this much,
> and I imagine you do too, Kevin, with your background. It applies as
> much to the Chiefs or the Bisons as it does to the Reds, so from one
> media type to another: Even the most junior reporter in town should be
> able to walk into the clubhouse, talk to some of the players, and come
> out of there with a good story about the manager without ever even
> talking to him. If not, that manager's probably not much of a manager.
> Now, even when Narron took over for Miley, not a whole lot was written
> about the guy, and this year I think I've read more comments from the
> players about Mackanin this weekend than I saw on Narron all year.
>
> WTF? None of the players have anything to say about the manager? Alarm
> bells should start going off right away, there is something very wrong
> with that picture. Something was not right in that clubhouse.
>
> Think about what happened after Narron benched EE for not running out
> a ball. OK, it happens. Heck, Manny Acta in Washington benched none
> other than newsgroup martyr Felipe Lopez for the same thing back in
> June. Thing is that usually, right after it happens one of the other
> players comes out and says something like, "We're 100% behind him, you
> have to play the game right, yada yada yada." When Narron did it to
> EE? Griffey didn't say squat, Dunn didn't say squat, Harang didn't say
> squat, Weathers didn't say squat...none of the veteran players you'd
> expect to be team leaders had jack to say about it. The silence from
> the other Reds players was deafening.
>
> Again, I say something was not right in that clubhouse.
>
> Narron gets fired, and over the weekend, under the guy who Lonnie
> Wheeler is now calling "Pete McCanWin" we see Brandon Phillips bunt
> his way on, then subsequently tag up on a deep fly and take an extra
> base. No big deal, routine play really...except usually the guy is on
> second or third, and he's either taking third or turning the out into
> a sac fly. Phillips was on first at the time and the base he took on
> that deep fly was second base. Relatively speaking, how often do you
> see that happen? Never mind that it put him in scoring position, and
> Hopper singled him in with the go-ahead run in a game the Reds went on
> to win. Why was nobody making plays like that before?
>
> That's the biggest difference I see in this team so far. I have to
> wonder if the whole problem with this team before wasn't simply that
> Jerry Narron had everybody so tight you couldn't have pulled a needle
> out of somebody's ass with a tractor, whereas Pete Mackanin basically
> just says, "Go play the game and have fun," knowing full well that
> baseball's a lot more fun to play when you're winning.
>
> John D, Kasupski, Tonawanda, NY
> Reds Fan Since The 1960's
> http://www.kc2hmz.net
>

John - well put - I did notice something in Sat's game that I thought odd -
late in the game - game tied - runner on first Brandon P up... BP had struck
out his prev time up against Az's Webb - instead of bunting the runner over
into scoring postion Pete Mc allowed him to swing away - result - strikeout.
That is Narron ball for sure.

There is still too much wrong with this club - that a manager can not heal -
even though they won Sunday - they struck out 16 times. The starting
pitching has been for the most part very good this year - yea - Kyle L and
Bronson struggled for a period - but they as a unit have pitched well enough
for this team to be at least .500 at this point.
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:23:31 -0400, "Withheld at Owners Request"
<noaddr RemoveThis @isp.com> wrote:

>
>John - well put - I did notice something in Sat's game that I thought odd -
>late in the game - game tied - runner on first Brandon P up... BP had struck
>out his prev time up against Az's Webb - instead of bunting the runner over
>into scoring postion Pete Mc allowed him to swing away - result - strikeout.
>That is Narron ball for sure.

Huh? Narron rarely passed up a chance to bunt.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

"John Kasupski" <kc2hmz RemoveThis @wzrd.com> wrote in message
news:gde593lepc0naaqc3d0pbc01v9k0l02ail@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:28:41 -0400, Kevin McClave
> <kmcclave RemoveThis @SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>I used to work in the media. Did news and sports for five and a half
>>years on WSYR radio here in Syracuse. Not to fully equate that to
>>covering a major league team by any means, but while I can appreciate
>>not wanting to harm your access, I can also clearly see at least asking
>>those types of questions in the post game. Do we have any indication
>>that the issue was ever even raised with Jerry? They second-guess
>>managerial decisions all the time in post-game interviews. I don't think
>>this is one they ever got, or at least believed.
>
> I don't think that's all they missed, either. I'd intended to go
> further this morning but then I learned Bailey had been optioned and
> cut it short to go read up on that development.
>
> To follow up on what Mr. K posted - Pete yanked Belisle after four
> innings of a game he was getting smacked around a bit in. He also
> yanked Bailey after five innings in which he allowed two hits and one
> run, and he spun it differently, but it's July, it's hot and muggy,
> and this is a rookie who was already over 80 pitches after the fifth
> inning. If I'm manager, I tell Homer, "Good job, kid, now sit down and
> chug some Gatorade and listen to what Dick Pole has to say." Which is
> basically what Pete did.
>
> He also deferred to Pole on setting the rotation for after the
> all-star break, then admitted to the press that he let Pole tell him
> what to do.
>
> Coutlangus came into a game over the weekend right after Coffey let a
> lead get away, and got the last out of that inning. In May under
> Narron, somebody else comes in to pitch to start the next inning, and
> soon three pitchers have been used in the inning and the game has been
> lost anyway. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt. OK, Pete left
> Coutlangus in there. He struck out the side and ended up as the
> winning pitcher. Then there's Stanton's two-inning stint that Mr. K
> also noted upthread. Two innings? That's a week's worth of appearances
> for Stanton under Narron. Either Pete knows how to handle pitching, or
> Dick Pole does and Mackanin at least has enough sense to listen to
> him. Either way, Narron didn't get it. This guy gets it.
>
> Although I am a writer, I'm not a sportswriter; but I know this much,
> and I imagine you do too, Kevin, with your background. It applies as
> much to the Chiefs or the Bisons as it does to the Reds, so from one
> media type to another: Even the most junior reporter in town should be
> able to walk into the clubhouse, talk to some of the players, and come
> out of there with a good story about the manager without ever even
> talking to him. If not, that manager's probably not much of a manager.
> Now, even when Narron took over for Miley, not a whole lot was written
> about the guy, and this year I think I've read more comments from the
> players about Mackanin this weekend than I saw on Narron all year.
>
> WTF? None of the players have anything to say about the manager? Alarm
> bells should start going off right away, there is something very wrong
> with that picture. Something was not right in that clubhouse.
>
> Think about what happened after Narron benched EE for not running out
> a ball. OK, it happens. Heck, Manny Acta in Washington benched none
> other than newsgroup martyr Felipe Lopez for the same thing back in
> June. Thing is that usually, right after it happens one of the other
> players comes out and says something like, "We're 100% behind him, you
> have to play the game right, yada yada yada." When Narron did it to
> EE? Griffey didn't say squat, Dunn didn't say squat, Harang didn't say
> squat, Weathers didn't say squat...none of the veteran players you'd
> expect to be team leaders had jack to say about it. The silence from
> the other Reds players was deafening.
>
> Again, I say something was not right in that clubhouse.
>
> Narron gets fired, and over the weekend, under the guy who Lonnie
> Wheeler is now calling "Pete McCanWin" we see Brandon Phillips bunt
> his way on, then subsequently tag up on a deep fly and take an extra
> base. No big deal, routine play really...except usually the guy is on
> second or third, and he's either taking third or turning the out into
> a sac fly. Phillips was on first at the time and the base he took on
> that deep fly was second base. Relatively speaking, how often do you
> see that happen? Never mind that it put him in scoring position, and
> Hopper singled him in with the go-ahead run in a game the Reds went on
> to win. Why was nobody making plays like that before?
>
> That's the biggest difference I see in this team so far. I have to
> wonder if the whole problem with this team before wasn't simply that
> Jerry Narron had everybody so tight you couldn't have pulled a needle
> out of somebody's ass with a tractor, whereas Pete Mackanin basically
> just says, "Go play the game and have fun," knowing full well that
> baseball's a lot more fun to play when you're winning.

The team in general is playing with enthusiasm. Nobody bothered to mention
Griffey Jr.'s hard slide and break up of a double play in Sunday's game. He
really hit the 2nd baseman hard. The Phillips tag up was huge.
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

"RJA" <rja.RemoveThis@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in
news:469446b8$0$4912$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:


>
> The team in general is playing with enthusiasm. Nobody bothered to
> mention Griffey Jr.'s hard slide and break up of a double play in
> Sunday's game. He really hit the 2nd baseman hard. The Phillips tag
> up was huge.


While I definitely appreciated the effort from Junior on that play, I'd be
lying if I didn't add that I was holding my breath when I saw him barrel
into the 2nd baseman. I liked his enthusiasm, but with his injury history
and in light of his success this season I'd really have hated it if he'd
come up injured there. On the other hand, to not slide into the 2nd
baseman would've been a lack of fundamentals, I suppose.

-TG
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

On Jul 10, 10:56 pm, "RJA" <r....DeleteThis@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote:

> The team in general is playing with enthusiasm. Nobody bothered to mention
> Griffey Jr.'s hard slide and break up of a double play in Sunday's game. He
> really hit the 2nd baseman hard. The Phillips tag up was huge.- Hide quoted text -

Both huge plays - I was going to post about them, but other matters
took over.
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete! 

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:56:33 -0400, "RJA" <rja RemoveThis @nospam.cinci.rr.com>
wrote:

>>
>> That's the biggest difference I see in this team so far. I have to
>> wonder if the whole problem with this team before wasn't simply that
>> Jerry Narron had everybody so tight you couldn't have pulled a needle
>> out of somebody's ass with a tractor, whereas Pete Mackanin basically
>> just says, "Go play the game and have fun," knowing full well that
>> baseball's a lot more fun to play when you're winning.
>

Most teams get a bump after a change. Narron got one, so did Miley.

The trap that we've fallen into twice in a row is letting that bump
influence the permanent choice. Even PM went into this thing
knowing full well that it was slated as "interim", he wouldn't be
human if he weren't harboring hopes of more.

If PM gets consideration, then wins and losses should have no bearing
on it at all. If it turns out to be about winning, then he isn't
doing the job he was hired to do (assess the talent on the team), and
I'll have even less respect for WK's evaluation skills, or ability to
lead this team in the right direction.

I'm not advocating going in the tank, but does everyone realize that
the number one pick of the draft is about the best reward this season
could bring?

Who's the pre-season favorite for the #1 pick?

>The team in general is playing with enthusiasm. Nobody bothered to mention
>Griffey Jr.'s hard slide and break up of a double play in Sunday's game. He
>really hit the 2nd baseman hard. The Phillips tag up was huge.
>

I didn't see it, but Marty and JB certainly beamed about it on the
radio, as did CTR in his blog. I'm torn because I like to win, but
one play or one loss isn't really worth KGJ's season. Trading him
would be off the table, 600 would be out of reach, and we'd be stuck
just paying him for another short season.

What they didn't mention was Dunn hitting the ball far enough to left
to advance Phillips. Guess Hopper grounding to 2nd would've been more
textbook.
 >> Stay informed about: Pete Pete Pete!