Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again!

TJ-BF wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> I picked this game out of the three with HOU to attend earlier this
> year, and I'm so glad I did, although I wished I could have seen Carpenter
> slice-and-dice his way through HOU on 9/11.
> I was prepared to see a loss with the score 5-4 Hou. after 7 inn. and
> then 8 inn., because the Birds hardly ever come back to win in the 9th after
> trailing in the 8th.
> Not this time!
> The one mistake Lidge really made was hitting Spiezio and thereby
> letting Albert get up one more time and almost like clockwork, he delivered
> in the clutch again.
> Last year, I attended a game when Albert hit a 2-run HR in the 13th to
> win the game when they trailed by a run after the top of the inning, and he
> did the same thing last night but it was "only" a Double. But that was so
> much fun to see Schumaker and Spiezio running around those bases to go home
> turning the loss into a win!
> This was a typical Albert night: 3 official ABs, 2 W (incl 1 IW), and 1
> hit--the critical one needed when he (and the team) was down to his last
> strike.
> It was his MLB-leading 23rd Game-winning RBI hit (18 by HR), and his
> 119th and 120th RBI (tying Berkman; only Howard has more--138), and if he
> doesn't win the MVP Award by a solid margin--somebody needs to shake the
> BBWAA voters and slap them around a lot until they come to their senses!

Pujols will likely not even win let alone by a wide margin.

Here is all you need to know:

Howard since August 1st: .397 batting average, .870 slg%, .520 OBP
Pujols since August 1st: .323 batting average, .634 slg%, .416 OBP

Phillies 23-16 in that time (after trading away Abreu!!!)
Cards 19-21 in that time

Ryan HOward has led the Phillies into the playoff race, is destroying
the NL over the last two months and is the most dangerous hitter in
baseball right now.

The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.

Howard is the runaway MVP this year and I am not a Cards or Phils fan
just an objective baseball fan

>
> http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd...060912&
> Article
>
> http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=...6_09_12
> Box Score
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

wagner wrote:
>
> The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
> realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
> a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.
>

Au contraire, the GWRBI is a great stat to measure clutch hitting - the
driving in of the go-ahead run.

In other words you are batting while behind or tied and your rbi(s)
puts you ahead. *That* is clutch hitting.

It compares quite favorably to the nonsense game-winning-goal in hockey
which is merely the goal required to beat the other team. In other
words you score the 4th goal to make it 4-0, and the other team comes
back to 4-3, you get the GWG...


HankC
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

HankC wrote:
> wagner wrote:
> >
> > The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
> > realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
> > a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.
> >
>
> Au contraire, the GWRBI is a great stat to measure clutch hitting - the
> driving in of the go-ahead run.
>
> In other words you are batting while behind or tied and your rbi(s)
> puts you ahead. *That* is clutch hitting.
>
> It compares quite favorably to the nonsense game-winning-goal in hockey
> which is merely the goal required to beat the other team. In other
> words you score the 4th goal to make it 4-0, and the other team comes
> back to 4-3, you get the GWG...

Uh, the example you used as a bad example for hockey is exactly the
same idiotic reason baseball eliminated the GWRBI stat.

If you drive in the 4th run to make it 4-0 and your team wins 4-3, then
you get the GWRBI just like in hockey.

The GWRBI is defined as:

Credited to the batter who drives in the run that gives his team a lead
that it never relinquishes.

So the person driving in the 3rd run does not get a GWRBI because his
team relinquished that lead..
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

wagner wrote:
> HankC wrote:
> > wagner wrote:
> > >
> > > The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
> > > realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
> > > a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.
> > >
> >
> > Au contraire, the GWRBI is a great stat to measure clutch hitting - the
> > driving in of the go-ahead run.
> >
> > In other words you are batting while behind or tied and your rbi(s)
> > puts you ahead. *That* is clutch hitting.
> >
> > It compares quite favorably to the nonsense game-winning-goal in hockey
> > which is merely the goal required to beat the other team. In other
> > words you score the 4th goal to make it 4-0, and the other team comes
> > back to 4-3, you get the GWG...
>
> Uh, the example you used as a bad example for hockey is exactly the
> same idiotic reason baseball eliminated the GWRBI stat.
>

Far different, the hockey game winning goal may be scored with your
team well ahead.

The baseball gwrbi, must be accomplished with your team tied or
behind...

> If you drive in the 4th run to make it 4-0 and your team wins 4-3, then
> you get the GWRBI just like in hockey.
>

incorrect

> The GWRBI is defined as:
>
> Credited to the batter who drives in the run that gives his team a lead
+> that it never relinquishes.
>
> So the person driving in the 3rd run does not get a GWRBI because his
> team relinquished that lead..

Your interpretation is incorrect. The team never relinquished the lead;
they are always ahead. True, the lead shrank, t was never lost...

It does not matter how much of the lead you relinquish.

Basically, if I hit a homerun that puts us ahead 1-0 and we are never
tied or behind therafter, I get the gwrbi. If we lose the lead, the
gwrbi is reset...


HankC
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

"wagner" <heaton1971 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158170518.499250.220720@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> HankC wrote:
>> wagner wrote:
>> >
>> > The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
>> > realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
>> > a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.
>> >
>>
>> Au contraire, the GWRBI is a great stat to measure clutch hitting - the
>> driving in of the go-ahead run.
>>
>> In other words you are batting while behind or tied and your rbi(s)
>> puts you ahead. *That* is clutch hitting.
>>
>> It compares quite favorably to the nonsense game-winning-goal in hockey
>> which is merely the goal required to beat the other team. In other
>> words you score the 4th goal to make it 4-0, and the other team comes
>> back to 4-3, you get the GWG...
>
> Uh, the example you used as a bad example for hockey is exactly the
> same idiotic reason baseball eliminated the GWRBI stat.
>
> If you drive in the 4th run to make it 4-0 and your team wins 4-3, then
> you get the GWRBI just like in hockey.
>
> The GWRBI is defined as:
>
> Credited to the batter who drives in the run that gives his team a lead
> that it never relinquishes.
>
> So the person driving in the 3rd run does not get a GWRBI because his
> team relinquished that lead..

Really? So what about this scenario:

Player X comes to the plate with his team with his team trailing 2-1. One
man on base. He hits a home run, giving his team a 3-2 lead, and so he
drove in the tying and lead runs. The subsequent batter, Player Y, also
homers, making the score 4-2. Later the opposing team scores 1 run to make
it 4-3, and that is the last scoring in the game. Player X drove in the run
that created a lead that his team never relinquished. By the above rule,
does not Player X get the GWRBI, not Player Y?

AJM
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

On 13 Sep 2006 08:09:14 -0700, "wagner" <heaton1971 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> gave
us:

>Pujols will likely not even win let alone by a wide margin.

>Here is all you need to know:

>Howard since August 1st: .397 batting average, .870 slg%, .520 OBP
>Pujols since August 1st: .323 batting average, .634 slg%, .416 OBP

>Phillies 23-16 in that time (after trading away Abreu!!!)
>Cards 19-21 in that time

The MVP Award is for the entire season.

Pujols 323/426/677
Howard 316/413/682

>Ryan Howard has led the Phillies into the playoff race,

You mean the wildcard (also known as the best loser) race.

>is destroying
>the NL over the last two months and is the most dangerous hitter in
>baseball right now.

>The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
>realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
>a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.

You're right about that. The GWRBI stat sucks.

>Howard is the runaway MVP this year and I am not a Cards or Phils fan
>just an objective baseball fan

On the numbers, Pujols has had a better year. If you use the old
"where would his team be without him?" that cuts Pujols' way also.

--
Lance

"Push the button, Max!" ~Professor Fate

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 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

HankC wrote:
> wagner wrote:
> > HankC wrote:
> > > wagner wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
> > > > realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
> > > > a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Au contraire, the GWRBI is a great stat to measure clutch hitting - the
> > > driving in of the go-ahead run.
> > >
> > > In other words you are batting while behind or tied and your rbi(s)
> > > puts you ahead. *That* is clutch hitting.
> > >
> > > It compares quite favorably to the nonsense game-winning-goal in hockey
> > > which is merely the goal required to beat the other team. In other
> > > words you score the 4th goal to make it 4-0, and the other team comes
> > > back to 4-3, you get the GWG...
> >
> > Uh, the example you used as a bad example for hockey is exactly the
> > same idiotic reason baseball eliminated the GWRBI stat.
> >
>
> Far different, the hockey game winning goal may be scored with your
> team well ahead.
>
> The baseball gwrbi, must be accomplished with your team tied or
> behind...
>
> > If you drive in the 4th run to make it 4-0 and your team wins 4-3, then
> > you get the GWRBI just like in hockey.
> >
>
> incorrect
>
> > The GWRBI is defined as:
> >
> > Credited to the batter who drives in the run that gives his team a lead
> +> that it never relinquishes.
> >
> > So the person driving in the 3rd run does not get a GWRBI because his
> > team relinquished that lead..
>
> Your interpretation is incorrect. The team never relinquished the lead;
> they are always ahead. True, the lead shrank, t was never lost...
>
> It does not matter how much of the lead you relinquish.
>
> Basically, if I hit a homerun that puts us ahead 1-0 and we are never
> tied or behind therafter, I get the gwrbi. If we lose the lead, the
> gwrbi is reset...

Agreed, I was wrong... but even in this example it is still seems to be
a dumb stat because if I hit a sold HR in the first inning to put my
team ahead 1-0 and the game ends 15-14 with my team never losing the
lead I get a GWRBI.

MLB stopped recognizing it as an official stat in the mid 90s and the
baseball number geeks and myself also see it as a mostly useless:

stathttp://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/007022.php

I guess you think Andruw Jones should have won teh MVP last year then
since he led the league in GWRBI last year??

If not, then please explain why the stat is important this year but not
last year?
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

TJ-BF wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "wagner" <heaton1971.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158160154.527934.64180@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > TJ-BF wrote:
> >> x-no-archive: yes
> >>
> >> I picked this game out of the three with HOU to attend earlier this
> >> year, and I'm so glad I did, although I wished I could have seen
> >> Carpenter
> >> slice-and-dice his way through HOU on 9/11.
> >> I was prepared to see a loss with the score 5-4 Hou. after 7 inn.
> >> and
> >> then 8 inn., because the Birds hardly ever come back to win in the 9th
> >> after
> >> trailing in the 8th.
> >> Not this time!
> >> The one mistake Lidge really made was hitting Spiezio and thereby
> >> letting Albert get up one more time and almost like clockwork, he
> >> delivered
> >> in the clutch again.
> >> Last year, I attended a game when Albert hit a 2-run HR in the 13th
> >> to
> >> win the game when they trailed by a run after the top of the inning, and
> >> he
> >> did the same thing last night but it was "only" a Double. But that was
> >> so
> >> much fun to see Schumaker and Spiezio running around those bases to go
> >> home
> >> turning the loss into a win!
> >> This was a typical Albert night: 3 official ABs, 2 W (incl 1 IW),
> >> and 1
> >> hit--the critical one needed when he (and the team) was down to his last
> >> strike.
> >> It was his MLB-leading 23rd Game-winning RBI hit (18 by HR), and his
> >> 119th and 120th RBI (tying Berkman; only Howard has more--138), and if he
> >> doesn't win the MVP Award by a solid margin--somebody needs to shake the
> >> BBWAA voters and slap them around a lot until they come to their senses!
> >
> > Pujols will likely not even win let alone by a wide margin.
> >
> > Here is all you need to know:
> >
> > Howard since August 1st: .397 batting average, .870 slg%, .520 OBP
> > Pujols since August 1st: .323 batting average, .634 slg%, .416 OBP
>
>
> Cherry-picking from arbitrary time frames isn't the entire season.
>
> Pujols .321/.425/.672 473 AB 43 SO (127 G), out 2 1/2 weeks due to
> injury or he would have more HRs and RBIs than his already gaudy raw-number
> stats already show. 26 IW in 563 PA
>
> Howard .316/.413/.682 519 AB 156 SO (140 G) 613 PA, 50 more than
> Pujols. 25 IW in 613 PA

Pujols injury does not get to count as a positive in his MVP voting....
so quite talking about Howard having more PA.

>
>
>
> But if you want to play that cherry-picking date game:
>
> From Apr. 1-Apr. 30
>
> Howard .306/.388/.494
> Pujols .346/.509/.914
>
>
> Jul. 1-Jul. 31
>
> Howard .267/.411/.593
> Pujols .361/.441/.691
>
>
>
> > Phillies 23-16 in that time (after trading away Abreu!!!)
> > Cards 19-21 in that time
>
> 2006 Total Season, not just cherry-picking from an arbitrary Aug. 1
> starting date to skew the results a particular way because of the starting
> pitching meltdown by the Cards Jun. through Aug., not Pujols' fault:
>
> StL 77-68
> Phi. 72-71

So if the Phils wind up with a better record, then is Howard the MVP?

August 1st is also hardly an arbitrary date, it is the deadline for
trades and traditionally marks the the playoff push.


>
>
> > Ryan HOward has led the Phillies into the playoff race, is destroying
> > the NL over the last two months and is the most dangerous hitter in
> > baseball right now.
>
> Howard can win the HR and RBI titles, and still not win the MVP Award.
> Re: Andruw Jones, 2005 the NL MVP winner with the HR/RBI titles,
> remember him?

Yes, and Andruw did not desrve the MVP. Howard is not winning the MVP
simply because he is leading the league in HRs and RBIs, he is winning
the MVP (if Phils make playoffs) because he is adding more perceived
value to his team than any other player.


>
> NL Central
>
> StL leads their division by only 4.5 games and would be trailing their
> division if not for Pujols.
>
>
> NL East
>
> Phi. 16.5 GB the leader and *still* trails the second-rate Wild Card
> possibility by 2 G with a team barely over .500 and still may not make the
> playoffs, despite Howard.
>
> Any pitcher will tell you Pujols is the most feared and dangerous
> hitter in the NL, and probably in either league with the game on the line,
> as he showed again last night.

Interesting then that the Astros pitched to Pujols last night while
they walked Howard intentionally to lead off an inning just to avoid
facing him. In the last 2 months Howard is the most feared player in
the game.

> When Howard starts doing it year-after-year for at least 3 or 4 years
> instead of just one, then you can compare him with Pujols.

But last year, 2004, 2003 don't count towards the 2006 MVP award.

Pujols is the best hitter in the majors over the last two years and if
I were betting on who would have a higher OPS in 2007 I would bet on
Pujols, but this year Howard has been the most valuable in my opinon
and 79% of the 5,000+ sports fans that responded to ESPN's survey.
>
>
> > The GWRBI stat is not even an official stat anymore because people
> > realized how stupid it largely was/is..... a HR in the first inning is
> > a GMRBI if the pitcher throws a shutout.
> >
> > Howard is the runaway MVP this year and I am not a Cards or Phils fan
> > just an objective baseball fan
>
> <snort, on that ridiculous claim about 'runaway MVP', when you also
> have Beltran from the Mets also getting votes!>

Beltran has dropped out of the race with his latest injuries and as he
rests down the stretch, I don't see Beltran taking away any 1st place
votes from Howard or Pujols.

>
>
> >>
> >> http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd...060912&
> >> Article
> >>
> >>
> >> http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=...6_09_12
> >> Box Score
 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

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 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again! 

On 13 Sep 2006 19:07:54 -0700, "wagner" <heaton1971.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> gave
us:
>TJ-BF wrote:

>> Any pitcher will tell you Pujols is the most feared and dangerous
>> hitter in the NL, and probably in either league with the game on the line,
>> as he showed again last night.

>Interesting then that the Astros pitched to Pujols last night while
>they walked Howard intentionally to lead off an inning just to avoid
>facing him. In the last 2 months Howard is the most feared player in
>the game.

No, there's a simple answer to explain this.

Scott Rolen >>>>>>>>>> Pat Burrell, Jeff Conine or David Dellucci

--
Lance

"Where, oh where, are you tonight? How could you leave me here
all alone? I searched the world over and thought I found true
love. You met another and PFFT you were gone!"
-- noted American philosopher Archie Campbell

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 >> Stay informed about: Mr. Clutch kills the Astros again!