Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens

On Jun 9, 1:04 am, "John" <ajs....TakeThisOut@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> Since Griffey has been on the Reds, he has yet to sacrifice one runner
> around the bases - an amazing stat when you look at how many time he has
> batted for the Reds. How can anyone say he is the 'best ever'. Guess it
> depends on what 'best ever' means.
> I realized 3 years ago, Griffey is going to do only what Griffey want s to
> do. I personally could care less what he gets classified as - I just wish
> he'd get the hell off of this team. John

When Griffey leaves the team, will you stop posting here?
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

Since Griffey has been on the Reds, he has yet to sacrifice one runner
around the bases - an amazing stat when you look at how many time he has
batted for the Reds. How can anyone say he is the 'best ever'. Guess it
depends on what 'best ever' means.
I realized 3 years ago, Griffey is going to do only what Griffey want s to
do. I personally could care less what he gets classified as - I just wish
he'd get the hell off of this team. John
"RJA" <rja RemoveThis @nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:484aedb3$0$4076$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Dave U. Random" <anonymous RemoveThis @anonymitaet-im-inter.net> wrote in message
> news:e1b531daf2e331d6ba60b013dd7a5b3b@anonymitaet-im-inter.net...
>> "As the Reds slugger goes for 600 home runs, baseball fans
>> ponder his place in history. Specifically, had he not lost the
>> equivalent of four seasons to injury, would he now be considered
>> the best ever?..."
>
> Best ever? No. Even Bonds was better overall in the 90s (before he
> ballooned).
>
> Griffey has had a hell of a career, but after watching him for 9 years,
> I'm not convinced that he put the effort in to be as good as he could be
> and winning doesn't seem to me like his #1 priority. Last weekend, I was
> at the Atlanta game (when Bruce hit his game winner). The Reds were down
> by a run with a man on first (8th inning I think). Atlanta was shifted so
> far to the right that even the third baseman was almost behind 2nd base.
> Basically a free opportunity to hit the ball the other way or lay one down
> to move the runner to 2nd without making an out. He swung for the fences
> and struck out.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

"John" <ajshoe RemoveThis @cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:484cba81$0$7715$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Since Griffey has been on the Reds, he has yet to sacrifice one runner
> around the bases - an amazing stat when you look at how many time he has
> batted for the Reds. How can anyone say he is the 'best ever'. Guess it
> depends on what 'best ever' means.
> I realized 3 years ago, Griffey is going to do only what Griffey want s to
> do. I personally could care less what he gets classified as - I just wish
> he'd get the hell off of this team. John


Exactly how do you sacrifice a runner 'around the bases' John?
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

On Jun 7, 9:44 am, Dave U. Random <anonym....DeleteThis@anonymitaet-im-inter.net>
wrote:
> "As the Reds slugger goes for 600 home runs, baseball fans
> ponder his place in history. Specifically, had he not lost the
> equivalent of four seasons to injury, would he now be considered
> the best ever?..."
>
Doubtful. CF's a tough position to crack the inner circle.

He never had a serious chance of cracking the top 4 on
peak value (Mantle, Cobb, Mays, Speaker according to
linear weights -- best 5 seasons). Might have got
DiMaggio but I'm skeptical.

Career value after adjusting for context? Again doubtful.
Mays and Cobb are very tough targets.

He'd obviously be in the hunt for most career home runs
but that's a product of the way the game's evolved.
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008, Dave U. Random wrote:

> "As the Reds slugger goes for 600 home runs, baseball fans
> ponder his place in history. Specifically, had he not lost the
> equivalent of four seasons to injury, would he now be considered
> the best ever?..."
>
> Wall Street Journal: http://easyurl.net/GriffeyJr

At the rate JR is going we might have to go back through his
box scores and see if we can find one we missed so he can
get to 600. Kind of like that movie where they took a hit
away from "Mr. 3000".
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

"John" <ajshoe.TakeThisOut@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:484cba81$0$7715$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Since Griffey has been on the Reds, he has yet to sacrifice one runner
> around the bases - an amazing stat when you look at how many time he has
> batted for the Reds. How can anyone say he is the 'best ever'. Guess it
> depends on what 'best ever' means.
> I realized 3 years ago, Griffey is going to do only what Griffey want s to
> do. I personally could care less what he gets classified as - I just wish
> he'd get the hell off of this team. John

First of all, genious, a sacrifice bunt comes from the dugout. Second, he's
got plenty of sac flies.
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

On Jun 8, 10:04 pm, "John" <ajs....RemoveThis@cinci.rr.com> wrote:

> Since Griffey has been on the Reds, he has yet to sacrifice one runner
> around the bases - an amazing stat when you look at how many time he has
> batted for the Reds.


Not really. big time sluggers rarely drop sac bunts. Just 4 examples
here: Big papi has yet to get a SH with the Red Sox. A-Rod hasnt had
one in almost 10 years. Manny Ramirez hasnt had one in almost 15
years. Its stupid to ask your big bats to hit into outs.

Probably the greatest contact-hitter/bat-control-artist of our
lifetime, Tony Gwynn only dropped only 4 sac bunts in the last 11
years of his career. Sac bunts is something you ask your weak hitters
to do.

Bringing Griffey to Cinci, with his history as a slugger, and then
asking him to sacrifice runners over whenevr possible would be
incredibly stupid; at least to most of us.

Now you can make the case that he isnt what he once was, and he should
try to do different things. But we're still talking about a guy who
can give you 30Hr and 90-100 RBI. screw bunting.

I really think you dont get baseball. You seem stuck in 1912.


> How can anyone say he is the 'best ever'. Guess it
> depends on what 'best ever' means.

that goes for all great players.

> I realized 3 years ago, Griffey is going to do only what Griffey want s to
> do. I personally could care less what he gets classified as - I just wish
> he'd get the hell off of this team.  John

Just as you only do what you want to do.
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

On Jun 8, 10:49 pm, tom dunne <dunn....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 1:04 am, "John" <ajs....DeleteThis@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Since Griffey has been on the Reds, he has yet to sacrifice one runner
> > around the bases - an amazing stat when you look at how many time he has
> > batted for the Reds. How can anyone say he is the 'best ever'. Guess it
> > depends on what 'best ever' means.
> > I realized 3 years ago, Griffey is going to do only what Griffey want s to
> > do. I personally could care less what he gets classified as - I just wish
> > he'd get the hell off of this team.  John
>
> When Griffey leaves the team, will you stop posting here?

I think it'd almost be worth it
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

On Jun 9, 10:06 pm, "RJA" <r....RemoveThis@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> "John" <ajs....RemoveThis@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:484cba81$0$7715$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > Since Griffey has been on the Reds, he has yet to sacrifice one runner
> > around the bases - an amazing stat when you look at how many time he has
> > batted for the Reds. How can anyone say he is the 'best ever'. Guess it
> > depends on what 'best ever' means.
> > I realized 3 years ago, Griffey is going to do only what Griffey want s to
> > do. I personally could care less what he gets classified as - I just wish
> > he'd get the hell off of this team. John
>
> First of all, genious, a sacrifice bunt comes from the dugout.

Right. And while I can sort of envisage a situation where you'd
at least consider bunting with a hitter as good as Griffey,
it just can't be common. Hank Aaron had one sac after he turned
23 and played much of his career in an environment where
runs were tough to come by. (Mays went 11 years without a sac
in his prime, Frank Robinson 13. It's just not going to be
common to want an elite hitter to bunt.)

> Second, he's got plenty of sac flies.

And advanced a few hitters on productive outs. Probably a slightly
below average number, but I suspect we're talking ~ a base or so
a year.
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens 

In article <4b5d6f01-d2f5-44fc-ae52-
0b081cd6538b.TakeThisOut@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, johnson.TakeThisOut@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca
says...
> On Jun 9, 10:06 pm, "RJA" <r....TakeThisOut@nospam.cinci.rr.com> wrote:

> And advanced a few hitters on productive outs. Probably a slightly
> below average number, but I suspect we're talking ~ a base or so
> a year.

Yeah, people vastly overestimate the number of productive outs players
typically make - even including the intentional ones, you can count an
average player's productive outs in a season without moving on to toes.

I estimate the difference in value between an average player at making
productive outs and a player that never makes a productive out as
roughly 2 runs a season.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan.TakeThisOut@baseballprimerREMOVE.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not a whole-hearted
supporter of what is good."
-Robert Schumann
 >> Stay informed about: Ken Griffey Jr. and his might-have-beens