Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday

On Dec 7, 2:29 pm, Xavier Onnasis
wrote:
> rdad....RemoveThis@panix.com (Dick Adams) wrote in
> @reader1.panix.com:
>
>
>
> > See both ballots atwww.Baseball-Reference.com
>
> > If the Veterans' Committee which consists of all living members
> > of the Hall of Fame runs true to form, no one will receive the
> > 75% need for induction.
>
> > In my rarely humble opinion, Dick Allen is the most deserving
> > name on the ballot. It was George Will who said Baseball is a
> > Palocracy and, unfortunately, Dick Allen is so short on pals
> > that, if I had a ballot, my vote for him would be meaningless.
>
> > So on my fictitious ballot with four votes to cast, I would
> > vote for Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Jim Kaat, and Luis Tiant. The
> > first two are career .300 hitters. Kaat is the winningest
> > southpaw passed over by the Baseball Writers. Luis Tiant is
> > my sentimental favorite whose curveball range from 50 to 90 mph.
> > But then again the Veterans' Committee has yet to induct anyone.
> > Ah the days of the Friends of Frankie Frisch are over.
> >===
>
> > Then there is the Old Timers Ballot voted on by a "select"
> > group of 12 with three votes each.
>
> > My fictitious ballot reads Carl Mays, Bucky Walters, and
> > Mickey Vernon. Mays and Walters were great pitchers. Mays'
> > bum rap comes from the tirades of Ty Cobb over the beaning
> > death of Ray Chapman. If not for WWII, Vernon might have had
> > 3000 hits.
>
> > Dick
>
> growing up, Vada Pinson and Tony Oliva were two of my favorite players.
> but while they both belong in the Hall of the Very Good, they're not
> quite HOF caliber. of this group, IMO only Dick Allen truly belongs
> (though in years past a number of posters have made strong cases for
> the inclusion of Ron Santo too)
>

Joe Gordon was an excellent choice. Dick Allen would be an ok choice,
maybe. Santo is a clear choice.
When people were watching both of them play, and I was one of them, it
seemed that Ken Boyer was a somewhat better player than Santo. You
can't see it in their numbers but it isn't far-fetched. If people
would notice the depressed offensive era in which he played, Billy
Freehan would be a good choice. And Wes Ferrell was a better hitter
than his brother, who is in, and had a wonderful Winning Percentage in
a time when ERAs were massively inflated. If Al Rosen had managed to
play one or two more years...

And Jim Rice should be in.

--
Will in New Haven
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

On Dec 10, 5:48 am, cla....TakeThisOut@lairds.us (Cameron Laird) wrote:
> In article ,
> Will in New Haven   wrote:
>                         .
>                         .
>                         .>Joe Gordon was an excellent choice. Dick Allen would be an ok choice,
> >maybe. Santo is a clear choice.
> >When people were watching both of them play, and I was one of them, it
> >seemed that Ken Boyer was a somewhat better player than Santo. You
> >can't see it in their numbers but it isn't far-fetched. If people
> >would notice the depressed offensive era in which he played, Billy
> >Freehan would be a good choice. And Wes Ferrell was a better hitter
> >than his brother, who is in, and had a wonderful Winning Percentage in
> >a time when ERAs were massively inflated. If Al Rosen had managed to
> >play one or two more years...
>
> >And Jim Rice should be in.
>
>                         .
>                         .
>                         .
> There seems plenty of agreement on Gordon.  By his numbers,
> he looks like someone with quite a short career (even if
> you give him full credit for two years of military service,
> that only makes thirteen years total,

He was a right-handed power hitter who never had a home park where you
could see the left-field fence from home plate. His career numbers
are, if you adjust for ballpark impact, significantly better than his
HoF contemporary, Bobby Doer.

and he seemed to be in
> pronounced decline by the age of 35), who did nothing special
> in six World Series, and was a better-than-average fielder
> (rather than the "truly brillian defensive player" Jerry
> Coleman reported)

I don't think you can judge defense looking at numbers well enough to
overrule the people who saw him play. For that matter, his overall
impact, as reflected by his MVP votes, would seem like something that
the people who watched him appreciated.

..  Vern Stephens played longer, played a
> more difficult position, seemed to make as many defensive
> plays as Gordon, and was essentially the same at the
> plate as Gordon.  Stephens' career record almost uniquely
> seems to have benefited from being at home during the War,
> but, just in on-field terms, he also arguably faced compe-
> tition that was stiffer because of (partial) integration.

Stephens and Gordon were probably both better players than Rizutto and
Doer. Bill James said that the wrong middle infielders from those
teams got in. I have no problem with Stephens for the Hall.

>
> I favor Deacon White, Sherry Magee, Santo, Allen, Torre,
> and maybe Kaat and Tiant over Stephens and Gordon.

Torre is a lock because of his managing career and possibly should
have been in anyway. Obviously, Santo is the favorite of everyone who
looks at his numbers. One does have to wonder why the sports pages
weren't full of "Santo this" and "Santo that." Still, I agree that he
should be in.

Kaat should be in and I don't know that Tiant shouldn't. But Ferrell
should be in ahead of both of them. So should Guidry. Jim Rice and Ken
Boyer should get some consideration. Rosen was very possibly the best
player in the game for a couple of years. How many HoFers were never
in contention for best player in the game? I'm sick of the longevity
issue.

Dick Allen dug his own hole. It's not that I wouldn't vote for him but
I don't ever expect him to be an issue.

--
Will in New Haven
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

In article ,
Will in New Haven wrote:
.
.
.
>Joe Gordon was an excellent choice. Dick Allen would be an ok choice,
>maybe. Santo is a clear choice.
>When people were watching both of them play, and I was one of them, it
>seemed that Ken Boyer was a somewhat better player than Santo. You
>can't see it in their numbers but it isn't far-fetched. If people
>would notice the depressed offensive era in which he played, Billy
>Freehan would be a good choice. And Wes Ferrell was a better hitter
>than his brother, who is in, and had a wonderful Winning Percentage in
>a time when ERAs were massively inflated. If Al Rosen had managed to
>play one or two more years...
>
>And Jim Rice should be in.
.
.
.
There seems plenty of agreement on Gordon. By his numbers,
he looks like someone with quite a short career (even if
you give him full credit for two years of military service,
that only makes thirteen years total, and he seemed to be in
pronounced decline by the age of 35), who did nothing special
in six World Series, and was a better-than-average fielder
(rather than the "truly brillian defensive player" Jerry
Coleman reported). Vern Stephens played longer, played a
more difficult position, seemed to make as many defensive
plays as Gordon, and was essentially the same at the
plate as Gordon. Stephens' career record almost uniquely
seems to have benefited from being at home during the War,
but, just in on-field terms, he also arguably faced compe-
tition that was stiffer because of (partial) integration.

I favor Deacon White, Sherry Magee, Santo, Allen, Torre,
and maybe Kaat and Tiant over Stephens and Gordon.
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

On Dec 9, 9:43�pm, Will in New Haven
wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2:29 pm, Xavier Onnasis
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > rdad....RemoveThis@panix.com (Dick Adams) wrote in
> > @reader1.panix.com:
>
> > > See both ballots atwww.Baseball-Reference.com
>
> > > If the Veterans' Committee which consists of all living members
> > > of the Hall of Fame runs true to form, no one will receive the
> > > 75% need for induction.
>
> > > In my rarely humble opinion, Dick Allen is the most deserving
> > > name on the ballot. �It was George Will who said Baseball is a
> > > Palocracy and, unfortunately, Dick Allen is so short on pals
> > > that, if I had a ballot, my vote for him would be meaningless.
>
> > > So on my fictitious ballot with four votes to cast, I would
> > > vote for Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Jim Kaat, and Luis Tiant. �The
> > > first two are career .300 hitters. �Kaat is the winningest
> > > southpaw passed over by the Baseball Writers. �Luis Tiant is
> > > my sentimental favorite whose curveball range from 50 to 90 mph.
> > > But then again the Veterans' Committee has yet to induct anyone.
> > > Ah the days of the Friends of Frankie Frisch are over.
> > >===
>
> > > Then there is the Old Timers Ballot voted on by a "select"
> > > group of 12 with three votes each.
>
> > > My fictitious ballot reads Carl Mays, Bucky Walters, and
> > > Mickey Vernon. �Mays and Walters were great pitchers. �Mays'
> > > bum rap comes from the tirades of Ty Cobb over the beaning
> > > death of Ray Chapman. �If not for WWII, Vernon might have had
> > > 3000 hits.
>
> > > Dick
>
> > growing up, Vada Pinson and Tony Oliva were two of my favorite players.
> > but while they both belong in the Hall of the Very Good, they're not
> > quite HOF caliber. �of this group, IMO only Dick Allen truly belongs
> > (though in years past a number of posters have made strong cases for
> > the inclusion of Ron Santo too)
>
> Joe Gordon was an excellent choice. Dick Allen would be an ok choice,
> maybe. Santo is a clear choice.
> When people were watching both of them play, and I was one of them, it
> seemed that Ken Boyer was a somewhat better player than Santo. You
> can't see it in their numbers but it isn't far-fetched. If people
> would notice the depressed offensive era in which he played, Billy
> Freehan would be a good choice. And Wes Ferrell was a better hitter
> than his brother, who is in, and had a wonderful Winning Percentage in
> a time when ERAs were massively inflated. If Al Rosen had managed to
> play one or two more years...
>
> And Jim Rice should be in.

The people who best belong from that list are Bill Dahlen, Sherry
Magee and Carl Mays. Mays would have been in for 60 years now if he
could have taken back that one pitch to Chapman. Dahlen is clearly the
best career player from the early days whi is not yet in, and Magee is
probably the least recognized great player in history. The best NL
hitter of the dead ball era other than Wagner.
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

On Dec 9, 9:43�pm, Will in New Haven
wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2:29 pm, Xavier Onnasis
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > rdad... DeleteThis @panix.com (Dick Adams) wrote in
> > @reader1.panix.com:
>
> > > See both ballots atwww.Baseball-Reference.com
>
> > > If the Veterans' Committee which consists of all living members
> > > of the Hall of Fame runs true to form, no one will receive the
> > > 75% need for induction.
>
> > > In my rarely humble opinion, Dick Allen is the most deserving
> > > name on the ballot. �It was George Will who said Baseball is a
> > > Palocracy and, unfortunately, Dick Allen is so short on pals
> > > that, if I had a ballot, my vote for him would be meaningless.
>
> > > So on my fictitious ballot with four votes to cast, I would
> > > vote for Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Jim Kaat, and Luis Tiant. �The
> > > first two are career .300 hitters. �Kaat is the winningest
> > > southpaw passed over by the Baseball Writers. �Luis Tiant is
> > > my sentimental favorite whose curveball range from 50 to 90 mph.
> > > But then again the Veterans' Committee has yet to induct anyone.
> > > Ah the days of the Friends of Frankie Frisch are over.
> > >===
>
> > > Then there is the Old Timers Ballot voted on by a "select"
> > > group of 12 with three votes each.
>
> > > My fictitious ballot reads Carl Mays, Bucky Walters, and
> > > Mickey Vernon. �Mays and Walters were great pitchers. �Mays'
> > > bum rap comes from the tirades of Ty Cobb over the beaning
> > > death of Ray Chapman. �If not for WWII, Vernon might have had
> > > 3000 hits.
>
> > > Dick
>
> > growing up, Vada Pinson and Tony Oliva were two of my favorite players.
> > but while they both belong in the Hall of the Very Good, they're not
> > quite HOF caliber. �of this group, IMO only Dick Allen truly belongs
> > (though in years past a number of posters have made strong cases for
> > the inclusion of Ron Santo too)
>
> Joe Gordon was an excellent choice. Dick Allen would be an ok choice,
> maybe. Santo is a clear choice.
> When people were watching both of them play, and I was one of them, it
> seemed that Ken Boyer was a somewhat better player than Santo. You
> can't see it in their numbers but it isn't far-fetched. If people
> would notice the depressed offensive era in which he played, Billy
> Freehan would be a good choice. And Wes Ferrell was a better hitter
> than his brother, who is in, and had a wonderful Winning Percentage in
> a time when ERAs were massively inflated. If Al Rosen had managed to
> play one or two more years...
>
> And Jim Rice should be in.

And although I think they'll vote Rice in this time, there's no way he
belongs. His career is a ballpark illusion. Twice he had a 39 HR
season and in both of those years he had a whopping 12 HRs on the road
and 27 at home. Career OPS+ is just 128, which is lower than Gene
Tenace and John Kruk.
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

Will in New Haven wrote in


> On Dec 7, 2:29 pm, Xavier Onnasis
> wrote:
>> rdad....DeleteThis@panix.com (Dick Adams) wrote in
>> @reader1.panix.com:
>>
>>
>>
>> > See both ballots atwww.Baseball-Reference.com
>>
>> > If the Veterans' Committee which consists of all living members
>> > of the Hall of Fame runs true to form, no one will receive the
>> > 75% need for induction.
>>
>> > In my rarely humble opinion, Dick Allen is the most deserving
>> > name on the ballot. It was George Will who said Baseball is a
>> > Palocracy and, unfortunately, Dick Allen is so short on pals
>> > that, if I had a ballot, my vote for him would be meaningless.
>>
>> > So on my fictitious ballot with four votes to cast, I would
>> > vote for Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Jim Kaat, and Luis Tiant. The
>> > first two are career .300 hitters. Kaat is the winningest
>> > southpaw passed over by the Baseball Writers. Luis Tiant is
>> > my sentimental favorite whose curveball range from 50 to 90 mph.
>> > But then again the Veterans' Committee has yet to induct anyone.
>> > Ah the days of the Friends of Frankie Frisch are over.
>> >===
>>
>> > Then there is the Old Timers Ballot voted on by a "select"
>> > group of 12 with three votes each.
>>
>> > My fictitious ballot reads Carl Mays, Bucky Walters, and
>> > Mickey Vernon. Mays and Walters were great pitchers. Mays'
>> > bum rap comes from the tirades of Ty Cobb over the beaning
>> > death of Ray Chapman. If not for WWII, Vernon might have had
>> > 3000 hits.
>>
>> > Dick
>>
>> growing up, Vada Pinson and Tony Oliva were two of my favorite
>> players. but while they both belong in the Hall of the Very Good,
>> they're not quite HOF caliber. of this group, IMO only Dick Allen
>> truly belongs (though in years past a number of posters have made
>> strong cases for the inclusion of Ron Santo too)
>>
>
> Joe Gordon was an excellent choice. Dick Allen would be an ok
> choice, maybe. Santo is a clear choice.
> When people were watching both of them play, and I was one of them,
> it seemed that Ken Boyer was a somewhat better player than Santo.

Boyer and Santo? yeah, when they were playing (sadly, I too
remember those days ;^D) I thought Boyer was the better of the
two...but looking back now? Santo has a clear edge.

this is one of those comparisons where the guy that used to
post the peak lists (Dale Stephenson???) could really shed some
light on the discussion. because it seems to me that Santo's
peak ('64 to '67) was WAY beyond anything that Boyer ever put
together ('58 thru '61 if you want consecutive, '59-'61 and
'64 if you're not so picky)


> You can't see it in their numbers but it isn't far-fetched. If
> people would notice the depressed offensive era in which he played,
> Billy Freehan would be a good choice.

huh? Norm Cash maybe...or Rocky Colavito...but Bill Freehan?
sorry, I think of the Tigers in the 60s, and Freehan isn't
even the best guy on the team, let alone HOF caliber


> And Wes Ferrell was a better
> hitter than his brother, who is in, and had a wonderful Winning
> Percentage in a time when ERAs were massively inflated. If Al Rosen
> had managed to play one or two more years...
>
> And Jim Rice should be in.

agreed...



>
> --
> Will in New Haven



--

XO
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

In article ,
Xavier Onnasis wrote:
.
.
.
>Boyer and Santo? yeah, when they were playing (sadly, I too
>remember those days ;^D) I thought Boyer was the better of the
>two...but looking back now? Santo has a clear edge.
>
>this is one of those comparisons where the guy that used to
>post the peak lists (Dale Stephenson???) could really shed some
>light on the discussion. because it seems to me that Santo's
>peak ('64 to '67) was WAY beyond anything that Boyer ever put
>together ('58 thru '61 if you want consecutive, '59-'61 and
>'64 if you're not so picky)
.
.
.
<URL: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.baseball/msg/812cbb5422c0b07f? >
<URL: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.baseball/browse_thread/thread...5156d17 >

By his numbers, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah hit better than any Boyer,
and Santo fielded better than Ken.
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

claird.RemoveThis@lairds.us (Cameron Laird) wrote in


> In article ,
> Xavier Onnasis wrote:
> .
> .
> .
>>Boyer and Santo? yeah, when they were playing (sadly, I too
>>remember those days ;^D) I thought Boyer was the better of the
>>two...but looking back now? Santo has a clear edge.
>>
>>this is one of those comparisons where the guy that used to
>>post the peak lists (Dale Stephenson???) could really shed some
>>light on the discussion. because it seems to me that Santo's
>>peak ('64 to '67) was WAY beyond anything that Boyer ever put
>>together ('58 thru '61 if you want consecutive, '59-'61 and
>>'64 if you're not so picky)
> .
> .
> .
><URL:
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.baseball/msg/812cbb5422c0b07f
>? > <URL:
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.baseball/browse_thread/thread
>/e75156d1771520bf/ >
>
> By his numbers, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah hit better than any Boyer,
> and Santo fielded better than Ken.
>

thanks for the links...as I suspected, Santo's peak was way
better that Boyer's (better outside and better fielding runs
too)

twas a real pleasure reading through those old posts...I'd
almost forgotten how much interesting info was exchanged in
real baseball discussions


--

XO
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

> Torre is a lock because of his managing career and possibly should
> have been in anyway.

I remember in one of his historical Baseball Abstracts Bill James made
the point that you could cut Rickey Henderson in half and have two
Hall of Famers. The same is true of Joe Torre; strictly as a player
he was pretty much on the bubble of the HOF and probably would have
gone in by way of the Veterans Committee, and even if he had never
played in the majors his record as a Manager (particularly with the
Yankees) is more than enough to put him in.
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday 

On Dec 14, 9:36 am, "Michael O'Connor" wrote:
> > Torre is a lock because of his managing career and possibly should
> > have been in anyway.
>
> I remember in one of his historical Baseball Abstracts Bill James made
> the point that you could cut Rickey Henderson in half and have two
> Hall of Famers. The same is true of Joe Torre; strictly as a player
> he was pretty much on the bubble of the HOF and probably would have
> gone in by way of the Veterans Committee, and even if he had never
> played in the majors his record as a Manager (particularly with the
> Yankees) is more than enough to put him in.


When they had one two of their championships, WFAN had listeners call
in one afternoon with questions that they would compile and ask the
"best" ones to Torre that night. I suggested "Do you think any of your
players know what a great player you were?" The guy on the phone
thought that it was a good question but they didn't use it.

--
Will in New Haven
 >> Stay informed about: Hall of Fame Ballots TBA 1pm on Monday