Second Half

> I don't know what the problem is with Dye, but the whole offense had it
> for much of the first half. He had a great year last year after getting
> the WS MVP so I don't think that had anything to do with his stuggles.
>
> My own guess is that he is in the last year of his contract and he has
> been pressing to put up big numbers as a negotiating position. JOMHO.

That's true and I think it's possible that the rest of the league's pitchers
play harder vs. the White Sox.
Hopefully those pitchers will start to feel the stress (if it's the case) of
this first half.

Don't get me wrong, I think Jermaine is a very generous, charitable and
thoughtful person - wherever he goes and has been.
Other than this year, I'm also sure that his "stock" has gone way up since
he's been with the WS.
He's done an exceptionally good job of filling in for Ordonez.
It would be nice if he can get it together - as with the rest of the
players.
And I actually can't imagine who they'd replace him with considering that
the outfield positions are quite "soft".
Whatever the case, that bullpen needs an upgrade if there's a chance of
coming back.
Thanks.....
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

No offense to Ernie Banks, but his loyalty to the Cubs may have been
tested if free agency existed when he played.

Given that Dye didn't come up with the White Sox, I'd hardly expect
him to have a strong motive to play the rest of his career with the club.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

"Gary S. Simon" <garscosi.DeleteThis@thisisatypo.pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:garscosi-34FEFA.11181012072007@news.west.earthlink.net...
>
> No offense to Ernie Banks, but his loyalty to the Cubs may have been
> tested if free agency existed when he played.

That's an interesting thing to ponder.
Since Curt Flood started the evolvement of free agency, it's probably hurt
the fans the most.

> Given that Dye didn't come up with the White Sox, I'd hardly expect
> him to have a strong motive to play the rest of his career with the club.

Yep, although I do believe that Reinsdorf and Einhorn have proven to be good
owners with a good - personal relationship with their players.
Dye has vastly improved since his days with the Braves and K.C. and that's
certainly a pleasantry.
I actually thought that his 30 HRs with Oakland was a fluke although he sure
is a big kid!
I really would rather (hope) not there be any major changes - ' just wish
there was something enthusiastic and invigorating down on the farm(s),
especially for some mid relief help.
But if there were a few good relievers out there in exchange for Jermaine,
that's a lot of lost power, although with the starters they have they can
still be very competitive.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:19:18 -0700, "t-bone"
<behyndblueeyes DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>After watching the White Sox play against the Angels in Tempe AZ. last
>spring - which was pathetically lethargic, and after seeing what they've
>done so far....
>I'm saddened to admit that (I believe) the best that they will be able to do
>is get within 7 games by October (5 at best).
At the begining of the season i posted a question as to where everyone
thought this club would finish. I picked them in fourth place. We were
a 4th place team going into the season why you would expect any better
I don't understand



>I doubt that they will even get that close considering all of their injuries
>and I don't think that they can manhandle any of the three teams ahead of
>them as they once had - that is unless they are truly spirited.
>I think that they have a good enough pitching rotation (hindered severely by
>their mid-late inning relief corp) to dig their way out from under .500, but
>I see too great of a drag on this team with Dye.
When we let Ordonez go and signed Dye it wasn't a good deal for us.
Dye had a great year offensively in 2006 (his best ever) but he will
hit somewhere between 260 and 280 with 25 to 30 HR's.and will strike
out twice as many times as he walks (not to memtion being below
average in the field) the Sox would have been wise to trade him last
year but thats not the way we do things. There is a reason KC and
Oakland let him walk away and it wasn't cause he wanted too much money
( I think we signed him for a mil a year initially)


>I would prefer to see him traded for a good reliever (or two)
You would be lucky to get 2 prospects for him. There are a boatlod of
guys playing that hit around 270 with less that 30 homers and ar below
average in the field


>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

"mercutio" <jim DeleteThis @witsend.com> wrote in message
news:0e1d93tr4q232iojrukfosa5lrs5vliv1q@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:19:18 -0700, "t-bone"
> <behyndblueeyes DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >After watching the White Sox play against the Angels in Tempe AZ. last
> >spring - which was pathetically lethargic, and after seeing what they've
> >done so far....
> >I'm saddened to admit that (I believe) the best that they will be able to
do
> >is get within 7 games by October (5 at best).
> At the begining of the season i posted a question as to where everyone
> thought this club would finish. I picked them in fourth place. We were
> a 4th place team going into the season why you would expect any better
> I don't understand

I'd always expected better than fourth.
I thought that they could win it again. I believe that they still have a
very good pitching staff regardless of what some here might say.
What has been killing them are the relievers. Losing via blown saves or
failing to hold a lead has a severe impact on every member of the team. It
can destroy a team's morale - and it has.
I've never said anything about the Rowand - Thome trade because I've always
felt that it was a reasonably good trade, especially when our hopes on
Anderson were so high.
I certainly don't think Anderson will stay stuck in the minors forever,
although he might not be quite "ripe" yet to return - regardess of how long
he might have to stay there.

> >I doubt that they will even get that close considering all of their
injuries
> >and I don't think that they can manhandle any of the three teams ahead of
> >them as they once had - that is unless they are truly spirited.
> >I think that they have a good enough pitching rotation (hindered severely
by
> >their mid-late inning relief corp) to dig their way out from under .500,
but
> >I see too great of a drag on this team with Dye.
> When we let Ordonez go and signed Dye it wasn't a good deal for us.
> Dye had a great year offensively in 2006 (his best ever) but he will
> hit somewhere between 260 and 280 with 25 to 30 HR's.and will strike
> out twice as many times as he walks (not to memtion being below
> average in the field) the Sox would have been wise to trade him last
> year but thats not the way we do things. There is a reason KC and
> Oakland let him walk away and it wasn't cause he wanted too much money
> ( I think we signed him for a mil a year initially)

If we'd kept Ordonez, we would never have even been in the playoffs in '05.
Hindsight is 20/20 on that one.
As much as Dye is struggling, I certainly don't think he's over the hill by
a longshot.

> >I would prefer to see him traded for a good reliever (or two)
> You would be lucky to get 2 prospects for him. There are a boatlod of
> guys playing that hit around 270 with less that 30 homers and ar below
> average in the field

But Dye's not a (lowly) .270 hitter with 30 or less HRs - maybe a few years
ago he was.
I think that he's fully developed as a hitter, but he's lacking something to
motivate him.
He's more of the slugger like the Hurt, but with good feet.
Seriously, I'd say they still have an outside chance to make it to the
playoffs - because those in the lead are possibly likely to flounder (as the
WS did last season after last year's AS break).
Although third place is more than likely.
But who knows? They could end up in last place if they stay as they are.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

>
>I'd always expected better than fourth.
>I thought that they could win it again. I believe that they still have a
>very good pitching staff regardless of what some here might say.
I agree with you on this one . The starting staff is very good (even
Vasquez has shown well and Contreras has been what he has always been
which is uhittable or extremely hittable with little in between which
is why the Yanks traded him to begin with)). However going into the
season we had more questions in the bullpen than we did when we
finished 3d. When you couple this with the fact that that Cleveland
and Detroit made deals to make them stronger and the Twins always seem
to find a way to beat us I don't see how you could ever expect us to
finish higher.




>What has been killing them are the relievers. Losing via blown saves or
>failing to hold a lead has a severe impact on every member of the team. It
>can destroy a team's morale - and it has.
>I've never said anything about the Rowand - Thome trade because I've always
>felt that it was a reasonably good trade, especially when our hopes on
>Anderson were so high.
You could see when Anderson got to play that he wasn't near as good as
Rowand defensively and he didn't hit as well as Rowand. Last year CF
was a black hole otherwise we would have never signed Erstad. The
trade was very similar to the Jorge Bell for Sammy Sosa trade ( not
that Rowand will ever hit for power). We gave away a young player with
tons of upside and proven at the major league level for a fading power
hitter with lots of physical ailments. We traded an all star CF for
the next 8-10 years for 2 or 3 years of Thome . NOT A GOOD DEAL!!



>I certainly don't think Anderson will stay stuck in the minors forever,
>although he might not be quite "ripe" yet to return - regardess of how long
>he might have to stay there.
I am reasonably sure that you won't be seeing Anderson in a Sox
uniform again. When people went down with injuries did you notice that
it wasn't Anderson that got called up.I would be willing to bet he
doesn't get a callup when they go to the 40 man roster


>
>> >I doubt that they will even get that close considering all of their
>injuries
>> >and I don't think that they can manhandle any of the three teams ahead of
>> >them as they once had - that is unless they are truly spirited.
>> >I think that they have a good enough pitching rotation (hindered severely
>by
>> >their mid-late inning relief corp) to dig their way out from under .500,
>but
>> >I see too great of a drag on this team with Dye.
>> When we let Ordonez go and signed Dye it wasn't a good deal for us.
>> Dye had a great year offensively in 2006 (his best ever) but he will
>> hit somewhere between 260 and 280 with 25 to 30 HR's.and will strike
>> out twice as many times as he walks (not to memtion being below
>> average in the field) the Sox would have been wise to trade him last
>> year but thats not the way we do things. There is a reason KC and
>> Oakland let him walk away and it wasn't cause he wanted too much money
>> ( I think we signed him for a mil a year initially)
>
>If we'd kept Ordonez, we would never have even been in the playoffs in '05.
>Hindsight is 20/20 on that one.
>As much as Dye is struggling, I certainly don't think he's over the hill by
>a longshot.
Not a hind sight thing. Basically (at least for all intents and
purposes) we " traded" .300+ hitter (who would hit 25+HR's a year)
who was average to a little above in the field for a .270 hitter
(who would hit 25+ HR's a year) who was below average in the field.
Now as a GM do you make this trade. I don't.


>
>> >I would prefer to see him traded for a good reliever (or two)
>> You would be lucky to get 2 prospects for him. There are a boatlod of
>> guys playing that hit around 270 with less that 30 homers and ar below
>> average in the field
>
>But Dye's not a (lowly) .270 hitter with 30 or less HRs - maybe a few years
>ago he was.

Previous to last year, when he had a carreer year, Dye's average for
04 and 05 was 264 and 275 respectively. Average those out and you get
..270 He is a career .273 hitter (and thats with the.315 year in 06
figured in). If he hits .225 this year (which he is well on his way to
doing) and you match that with what he hit last year (.315) you get
..270 So yes he is a lowly .270 hitter with average power (who strikes
out alot more than he walks (about 2 times more))
Jim
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

mercutio wrote:
>>I'd always expected better than fourth.
>>I thought that they could win it again. I believe that they still have a
>>very good pitching staff regardless of what some here might say.
>
> I agree with you on this one . The starting staff is very good (even
> Vasquez has shown well and Contreras has been what he has always been
> which is uhittable or extremely hittable with little in between which
> is why the Yanks traded him to begin with)). However going into the
> season we had more questions in the bullpen than we did when we
> finished 3d. When you couple this with the fact that that Cleveland
> and Detroit made deals to make them stronger and the Twins always seem
> to find a way to beat us I don't see how you could ever expect us to
> finish higher.
>
>
>
>
>
>>What has been killing them are the relievers. Losing via blown saves or
>>failing to hold a lead has a severe impact on every member of the team. It
>>can destroy a team's morale - and it has.
>>I've never said anything about the Rowand - Thome trade because I've always
>>felt that it was a reasonably good trade, especially when our hopes on
>>Anderson were so high.
>
> You could see when Anderson got to play that he wasn't near as good as
> Rowand defensively and he didn't hit as well as Rowand. Last year CF
> was a black hole otherwise we would have never signed Erstad. The
> trade was very similar to the Jorge Bell for Sammy Sosa trade ( not
> that Rowand will ever hit for power). We gave away a young player with
> tons of upside and proven at the major league level for a fading power
> hitter with lots of physical ailments. We traded an all star CF for
> the next 8-10 years for 2 or 3 years of Thome . NOT A GOOD DEAL!!
>
>



>
>
>>I certainly don't think Anderson will stay stuck in the minors forever,
>>although he might not be quite "ripe" yet to return - regardess of how long
>>he might have to stay there.
>
> I am reasonably sure that you won't be seeing Anderson in a Sox
> uniform again. When people went down with injuries did you notice that
> it wasn't Anderson that got called up.I would be willing to bet he
> doesn't get a callup when they go to the 40 man roster
>
>
I keep tabs on the minors and Anderson isn't even playing every day. I
think the Sox have given up on him.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

"mercutio" <jim.RemoveThis@witsend.com> wrote in message
news:hs8d93td387m4hkr3e6qi3u4a1tja2d1rb@4ax.com...
> >What has been killing them are the relievers. Losing via blown saves or
> >failing to hold a lead has a severe impact on every member of the team.
It
> >can destroy a team's morale - and it has.
> >I've never said anything about the Rowand - Thome trade because I've
always
> >felt that it was a reasonably good trade, especially when our hopes on
> >Anderson were so high.
> You could see when Anderson got to play that he wasn't near as good as
> Rowand defensively and he didn't hit as well as Rowand. Last year CF
> was a black hole otherwise we would have never signed Erstad. The
> trade was very similar to the Jorge Bell for Sammy Sosa trade ( not
> that Rowand will ever hit for power). We gave away a young player with
> tons of upside and proven at the major league level for a fading power
> hitter with lots of physical ailments. We traded an all star CF for
> the next 8-10 years for 2 or 3 years of Thome . NOT A GOOD DEAL!!

There's no doubt that Anderson isn't at par with Rowand's abilities, but
let's not forget that Aaron is five years older and more than likely fully
developed at 30 years old.
I'm not especially defending Anderson, and comparing him to Rowand would be
futile. Although he did show signs of being a quality player in the right
environment ('05).
There wasn't enough self-confidence in Anderson and it was obvious. Although
his teamates gave him a lot of what he was mssing, confidence. Aaron had
plenty of confidence because he was willing to go to any extent to catch a
flyball from day one with the WS - which is how you have to play CF. I
imagine that KW recognized that within two years Rowand could be replaced,
either with or without Andeson. We'll see what happens before this years
trading deadline. No doubt there's currently a void (or two) in the OF. So
far outside of injury, Thome seems to have performed quite well. As far as
Brian goes, he'll possibly get one more chance -and of course, I too, was
extremely frustrated with him.

> >I certainly don't think Anderson will stay stuck in the minors forever,
> >although he might not be quite "ripe" yet to return - regardess of how
long
> >he might have to stay there.
> I am reasonably sure that you won't be seeing Anderson in a Sox
> uniform again. When people went down with injuries did you notice that
> it wasn't Anderson that got called up.I would be willing to bet he
> doesn't get a callup when they go to the 40 man roster

Maybe next spring, if at all. Whatever the case, we all know that he was
never quite mature enough to have earned the starting CF position. The best
thing for him is to stay in the minors and try to test the others.


> >> >I doubt that they will even get that close considering all of their
> >injuries
> >> >and I don't think that they can manhandle any of the three teams ahead
of
> >> >them as they once had - that is unless they are truly spirited.
> >> >I think that they have a good enough pitching rotation (hindered
severely
> >by
> >> >their mid-late inning relief corp) to dig their way out from under
..500,
> >but
> >> >I see too great of a drag on this team with Dye.
> >> When we let Ordonez go and signed Dye it wasn't a good deal for us.
> >> Dye had a great year offensively in 2006 (his best ever) but he will
> >> hit somewhere between 260 and 280 with 25 to 30 HR's.and will strike
> >> out twice as many times as he walks (not to memtion being below
> >> average in the field) the Sox would have been wise to trade him last
> >> year but thats not the way we do things. There is a reason KC and
> >> Oakland let him walk away and it wasn't cause he wanted too much money
> >> ( I think we signed him for a mil a year initially)
> >
> >If we'd kept Ordonez, we would never have even been in the playoffs in
'05.
> >Hindsight is 20/20 on that one.
> >As much as Dye is struggling, I certainly don't think he's over the hill
by
> >a longshot.
> Not a hind sight thing. Basically (at least for all intents and
> purposes) we " traded" .300+ hitter (who would hit 25+HR's a year)
> who was average to a little above in the field for a .270 hitter
> (who would hit 25+ HR's a year) who was below average in the field.
> Now as a GM do you make this trade. I don't.

Magglio was a fine player - there's no doubt. But in '05, he was on the DL
all year.
Management (at the time) didn't know for certain whether he could fully
recover.
I don't know how or for whom KW picked up Dye, but he surely was a steal!
Ordonez is now back to full capacity, yet even he was only a 30 HR as well.

> >> >I would prefer to see him traded for a good reliever (or two)
> >> You would be lucky to get 2 prospects for him. There are a boatlod of
> >> guys playing that hit around 270 with less that 30 homers and ar below
> >> average in the field

> >But Dye's not a (lowly) .270 hitter with 30 or less HRs - maybe a few
years
> >ago he was.
>
> Previous to last year, when he had a carreer year, Dye's average for
> 04 and 05 was 264 and 275 respectively. Average those out and you get
> .270 He is a career .273 hitter (and thats with the.315 year in 06
> figured in). If he hits .225 this year (which he is well on his way to
> doing) and you match that with what he hit last year (.315) you get
> .270 So yes he is a lowly .270 hitter with average power (who strikes
> out alot more than he walks (about 2 times more))

It wasn't but a few weeks ago that Konerko was hitting .225. Paul's picked
it up a bit since then.
I very much doubt that Dye is going to stay below .250 by the end of the
year, and although I don't have great expectations of him as to reach .300
again, it wouldn't surprise me if he does.

As far as the teams ahead of them. I believe that all of the them - except
for the Twins, are playing over their heads.
This year again, the Tigers (with their pitching staff) will be the team to
beat. Cleveland is trying to stay ahead of the race.
But until the WS find some relief pitching, I think they need to get their
starters ready to pitch more complete games - or get through the eighth
inning.
Other than that, they won't stand a chance.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Benton" <tbentonhatesspam.RemoveThis@nycap.nospam.rr.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sports.baseball.chi-whitesox
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Second Half


> I keep tabs on the minors and Anderson isn't even playing every day. I
> think the Sox have given up on him.

Actually, the Minor league all star break is (I believe) currently going on.
He last play 07/06 - scoring a run, but doing an ohfer three.
Who knows, maybe Birmingham might be his next stop?
I'm sure he's either going through some "culture shock" or feeling a little
depressed as his .255 BA shows.

P.S. I had always though that Casey (Rogowski) was nearly "ripe".
Guess you have to actually watch them play to know if there's any true
potential.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

With Podsednik, Erstadt & Crede's injurys, a pen that doesn't know the
meaning of a hold(Garland gets through 8 last night with 9-2 lead and the
pen gives up 5 before Jenks has to be used unncessarily for the save), no
help available from the minors, an offense that is last in almost every
category.... 3rd place is a stretch. Detroit, Cleveland or the Twins won't
have a collapse big enough to let the Sox back in the race and the Sox don't
have enough talent to play themselves back into it. Even IF the offense
wakes up, what's the answer for the pen, we've tried everything in the
minors, now were going to try the knuckleballer, no other team is going to
trade solid relievers at this point if there in the race and the teams like
us that are out of it don't have any relievers to trade. My goal for the 2nd
half is stay out of the cellar.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

"Jeff Dieterle" <djdieterle RemoveThis @lhughes.net> wrote in message
news:139em318lni170a@corp.supernews.com...
> With Podsednik, Erstadt & Crede's injurys, a pen that doesn't know the
> meaning of a hold(Garland gets through 8 last night with 9-2 lead and the
> pen gives up 5 before Jenks has to be used unncessarily for the save), no
> help available from the minors, an offense that is last in almost every
> category.... 3rd place is a stretch. Detroit, Cleveland or the Twins
won't
> have a collapse big enough to let the Sox back in the race and the Sox
don't
> have enough talent to play themselves back into it. Even IF the offense
> wakes up, what's the answer for the pen, we've tried everything in the
> minors, now were going to try the knuckleballer, no other team is going to
> trade solid relievers at this point if there in the race and the teams
like
> us that are out of it don't have any relievers to trade. My goal for the
2nd
> half is stay out of the cellar.
>
>

Yeah, those injuries hurt, but who's to say that injuries are solely a White
Sox problem?
There's hardly a team in baseball that isn't prone to injury. My thought
is, that they play the game for fun and not take it all too seriously yet.
If they can wake up to that, maybe they stand a chance to improvise.
With their starting pitchers giving an everyday honest effort, and Haeger
possibly filling the necessary void (I know he's already given it a "shot"),
they can still compete.
We've already acknowledged that there's a relief problem - starting in July
of last year, but I'm certainly not ready to say "all is lost".
The basic core of the team is still intact, it's just a matter of them
having enough commitance and pride.
Throughout the years, I've seen teams rebound from a longer distance than 12
games out.
For this decade (and most of the previous), the WS have been an upper
echelon team - bedazzled primarily by the pesky Twins.
Ozzie has to work on getting his team to think about winning every series
(the old Jeff Torborg style of play), that's if that a-hole Marrioti would
stay off of his case.
As far as I'm concerned, Marrioti should be shunned by every White Sox fan
because he only writes to benefit only himself.
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half 

Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong and see the Sox play
themselves back into contention and not have to take the incessant ribbing
from the Cub Luvers. I just can't come up with a reasonable scenario for
this years team to get it done.
"t-bone" <behyndblueeyes.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XqJli.414$Dx2.232@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Jeff Dieterle" <djdieterle.RemoveThis@lhughes.net> wrote in message
> news:139em318lni170a@corp.supernews.com...
>> With Podsednik, Erstadt & Crede's injurys, a pen that doesn't know the
>> meaning of a hold(Garland gets through 8 last night with 9-2 lead and the
>> pen gives up 5 before Jenks has to be used unncessarily for the save), no
>> help available from the minors, an offense that is last in almost every
>> category.... 3rd place is a stretch. Detroit, Cleveland or the Twins
> won't
>> have a collapse big enough to let the Sox back in the race and the Sox
> don't
>> have enough talent to play themselves back into it. Even IF the offense
>> wakes up, what's the answer for the pen, we've tried everything in the
>> minors, now were going to try the knuckleballer, no other team is going
>> to
>> trade solid relievers at this point if there in the race and the teams
> like
>> us that are out of it don't have any relievers to trade. My goal for the
> 2nd
>> half is stay out of the cellar.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah, those injuries hurt, but who's to say that injuries are solely a
> White
> Sox problem?
> There's hardly a team in baseball that isn't prone to injury. My thought
> is, that they play the game for fun and not take it all too seriously yet.
> If they can wake up to that, maybe they stand a chance to improvise.
> With their starting pitchers giving an everyday honest effort, and Haeger
> possibly filling the necessary void (I know he's already given it a
> "shot"),
> they can still compete.
> We've already acknowledged that there's a relief problem - starting in
> July
> of last year, but I'm certainly not ready to say "all is lost".
> The basic core of the team is still intact, it's just a matter of them
> having enough commitance and pride.
> Throughout the years, I've seen teams rebound from a longer distance than
> 12
> games out.
> For this decade (and most of the previous), the WS have been an upper
> echelon team - bedazzled primarily by the pesky Twins.
> Ozzie has to work on getting his team to think about winning every series
> (the old Jeff Torborg style of play), that's if that a-hole Marrioti would
> stay off of his case.
> As far as I'm concerned, Marrioti should be shunned by every White Sox fan
> because he only writes to benefit only himself.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Second Half