Greatest pitcher of all time?

"Stebain" <stebain.DeleteThis@woh.rr.notthispart.com> wrote in message news:<jZpSc.155010$fv.93002@fe2.columbus.rr.com>...
> "GEO." <Groups.DeleteThis@theLOCALfolks.com> wrote in message
> news:IWcSc.5348$3B1.606@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
>
> >
> > "Dan Szymborski" <dan.DeleteThis@REMOVEbaseballprimer.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1b8322439099e9b89896ab@216.196.97.142 says...
> > .
> > :
> > : And even in your cherry-picked examples, you have a pitcher who was
> > : done by the time he was 30 and another who was done as a Hall of
> > : Famer by then, too.
> >
> >
> > Please be more specific regarding those that were "done".
>
> Catfish Hunter was pretty much done at 30.
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hunteca01.shtml
>
> Koufax quit at 30 [That was from the Kasupski part of the post]
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/koufasa01.shtml

Though that probably wasn't workload related. Then again, pitching
is very stressful. Who knows what would have happened given a
slightly less punishing workload.

Feller was done as an impact player at 32. Ditto Mathewson. Not unusual
for deadball pitchers. They packed a lot of pitching into fairly
short careers.

Not of course that deadball workloads tell us anything about what
a pitcher can survive. The pitchers of the day rarely threw all
out. All of the pitchers of the day are explicit about the need
to pace yourself. You can see that when offensive conditions
changed around 1920 (the process actually started in 1919 but
theygot serious about enforcing existing regulations and added
more in 1920) most managers started to cut back on what they demanded
of their starters.

Interestingly one manager from the deadball period who asked
significantly less of his starters than most was Frank Chance.
(And it's mighty tough to argue with the results -- his Cubs
teams were utterly dominant)

He always aimed for 5 starters to split the load among (though
he didn't use anything like a rotation -- that concept just didn't
exist until the 50s).

The 1922 Yankees also used 5 starters (Shawkey, Hoyt, Bush, Mays
and Jones) on a regular basis and continued to do so for
several years (in 1923 Pennock replaced Mays ). Wasn't an
injury issue, Huggins simply wanted to spread the work among
more pitchers.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

In article <jZpSc.155010$fv.93002@fe2.columbus.rr.com>,
stebain.DeleteThis@woh.rr.notthispart.com says...
>
> "GEO." <Groups.DeleteThis@theLOCALfolks.com> wrote in message
> news:IWcSc.5348$3B1.606@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
>
> >
> > "Dan Szymborski" <dan.DeleteThis@REMOVEbaseballprimer.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1b8322439099e9b89896ab@216.196.97.142 says...
> > .
> > :
> > : And even in your cherry-picked examples, you have a pitcher who was
> > : done by the time he was 30 and another who was done as a Hall of
> > : Famer by then, too.
> >
> >
> > Please be more specific regarding those that were "done".
> >
> > GEO.
>
>
> Catfish Hunter was pretty much done at 30.
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hunteca01.shtml
>
> Koufax quit at 30 [That was from the Kasupski part of the post]
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/koufasa01.shtml

As Ron mentions, I'm actually referring to Bob Feller. Feller
returned from the war to throw 371 innings in 1946. Then he lost a
massive chunk of his strikeout rate for his year 28 season, sporting
a 111 ERA+ from that year to the end of his career.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan.DeleteThis@baseballprimerREMOVE.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."
- Robert Schumann
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Jeff Plas" <none.RemoveThis@spammer.bitch> wrote in message
news:fgkRc.446$1W4.55@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for
the
> greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in history,
> but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn? Ryan? Carlton?
> Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens, or Johnson? Who's
your
> vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but not by much.
>
> Jeff
>
Sandy Koufax by far. He didn't make it to 300, but he was the best in the
game. Gibson a close second.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Eric Steinberg" <estein DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:EPlRc.4473$HC1.0@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
> Off the top of my head, some others who belong in the discussion include:
>
> Grover Cleveland Alexander
> Lefty Grove
> Carl Hubbell
> Bob Feller
> Whitey Ford
> Sandy Koufax
> Juan Marichal
> Bob Gibson
> Jim Palmer
>
> I'm somewhat biased against the current crop of pitchers due to the fact
> that so much less has been demanded of them. (I know, it's not really
their
> fault, but that's how it goes.) Going six or seven innings every fifth
day
> just doesn't impress me a whole lot in comparison to the monumental feats
> accomplished by the great pitchers of earlier decades.
>
> So who makes my short list?
>
> Young
> Alexander
> Mathewson
> W. Johnson
> Koufax
> Seaver
> Ryan (this is a major stretch but how can you ignore SEVEN no-hitters?
5,714
> strikeouts? 27 years in the big leagues? No way is he the greatest of all
> time, but he's an absolute larger-than-life freak of mythical
proportions.)
>
> You didn't specify which Johnson you liked best--IMO Walter has Randy beat
> nine ways to Sunday, and in fact The Big Train is my overall choice. The
> numbers reflect an unparalleled combination of masterful dominance and
> longevity, and just imagine if he'd actually played on a halfway decent
> team!
>
> ***************
> Rick Steinberg
> Angel fan in the shadow of Dodger Stadium....
>
As far as those way back pitchers go, they had less talented hitting back
then, less 'roided up batters with the quick swings. Cy Young won 500 some
games, yes, but that was also the dead ball era when they would pitch ever
other game if needed. Put Christy Mathewson up against Pujols and see what
happens. Put Babe Ruth against Clemens or Koufax and see what happens.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

>
> Randy might actually be the top LHSP...he definitely get's into THAT
> argument.
> --
> v/r Beau
>
> I am right. You are wrong. Quit arguing with me.
>
Without a doubt Randy Johnson is one of the best lefties, but remember
Koufax.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:o5uch09a5597s9h4p83gjinpdrppvmeffh@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:41:09 -0500, "Jolly Rogers"
> <jollyrogers RemoveThis @nospam.com> thought hard and said:
>
> >"Jeff Plas" <none RemoveThis @spammer.bitch> wrote:
> >
> >> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for
> >> the
> >> greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in
> >> history,
> >> but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn? Ryan? Carlton?
> >> Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens, or Johnson? Who's
> >> your
> >> vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but not by much.
> >
> >Greg Maddux, especially if we consider the different eras involved.
>
> Come on now, Jolly. Maddux is good, certainly, but not the greatest of
> all time.
>
Agreed. At one point during the mid 90's he was destined to, but age caught
up with him. He's still one of the best.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Jayhawker" <rock.chalk.TakeThisOut@jayhawks.net> wrote in message
news:BD3C733B.28665%rock.chalk@jayhawks.net...
> On 8/8/04 10:13 PM, in article cf6q5n01741.TakeThisOut@drn.newsguy.com, "Brian
Bigelow"
> <Brian_member.TakeThisOut@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <o5uch09a5597s9h4p83gjinpdrppvmeffh.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>, Daniel Kolle
says...
> >
> >>
> >> Come on now, Jolly. Maddux is good, certainly, but not the greatest of
> >> all time.
> >
> > I'd have to agree, but he's certainly got a better argument than Nolan
Ryan,
> > who
> > was mentioned by someone else in this thread. Maddux is clearly top 10,
I
> > think, and I doubt Ryan's even top 20.
> >
> > --BDB
> >
>
> Well, you are stupid, then. Did you even consider trying to justify your
> opinion? The guy threw SEVEN no-hitters.
>
> Baseball-Reference.com has him listed as 8th.
>
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml
>
> FWIW, Maddux is listed as 15th.
>
> Jayhawker
>
Additional ammo for Ryan fans is that he wasted his best years with Cali and
Houston....costing him a few more wins for sure.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Road Warrior" <RoadWarrior DeleteThis @Consulting.nospam.us> wrote in message
news:jCuRc.334$M%3.268@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> Jeff Plas wrote:
> > Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote
> > for the greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone
> > in history, but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn?
> > Ryan? Carlton? Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens,
> > or Johnson? Who's your vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but
> > not by much.
>
> Greatest pitcher? That's a rough one. I will go with Nolan Ryan for #1,
> Roger Clemens for #2.
>
> In the realm of "pitching career ended too short", I will go with Babe
Ruth
> for #1 (he was a great lefty), and an honorable mention to "career lost
to
> drug abuse" for Dwight Gooden.
>
NOLAN RYAN? Maybe for longetivity sake, but wow. The best ever and the
career cut too short thing goes to Koufax.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

and an honorable mention to "career lost to
> drug abuse" for Dwight Gooden.
>
The thing with Gooden is that he made the "mistake" of going 24-4 when he
was like what...20? So the rest of his career he was being measured up to
that one season.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Blue Dodger" <fuhgetaboutit.TakeThisOut@spammmmmmm.com> wrote in message
news:7xwRc.13479$cK.1934@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

"GEO." <Groups.TakeThisOut@theLOCALfolks.com> wrote in message
news:vTvRc.1797$QJ3.572@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> I'm not sure of what you are referring to with the "record" of 35 complete
> games; Bob Feller had 36 in 1946. Since 1900, Jack Chesbro holds the
record
> for right-handers at 48 in 1904 while Irv Young (1905) and Noodles Hahn
> (1901) hold the record for lefties. It gets crazier prior to 1900!
>
> See http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/CG_leagues.shtml.
>
> Not meant to detract from Ruth - his batting, pitching, fielding,
> baserunning and throwing ability make him probably the best athlete ever
to
> play baseball.
>
> P.S. I believe that Ruth held the record for consecutive scoreless innings
> in the World Series until recently.
>
> GEO.
> www.theLOCALfolks.com
>
> "Gary R. Good" <lallance.TakeThisOut@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:41167F70.2030708@adelphia.net...
> : Road Warrior wrote:
> : > Jeff Plas wrote:
> : In the realm of "pitching career ended too short", I will go with
> : Babe Ruth
> : > for #1 (he was a great lefty), and an honorable mention to "career
lost
> to
> : > drug abuse" for Dwight Gooden.
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > Babe Ruth's pitching stats come up every few years as one of those
> trivia questions.
> : If I remember correctly, he holds four records that will probably never
> : be broke. Most complete games in one season, 35 in 1917. Most innings
> : pitched in a World Series game, 14 in 1916 series. Lowest ERA for a
> : left-hander in one season, 1.75, (Minimum of 300 IP) Cannot remember,
> : or find anything on the fourth record. But, he decided he wanted to
> : play every day, and pretty much quit pitching.
> :
> : Gary
> :

Although I see this was cross-posted to several groups, I can't believe no
Dodger fans mention Sandy Koufax. Sure, his career was short-lived, but from
1963-1966 he thoroughly dominated the league and won 2 World Series with the
Dodgers.

He won the Pitcher's Triple-Crown 3 out of 4 of those years. During those 4
years he had 97 wins against 27 losses, a 1.86 ERA, and 1228 strikeouts
against 259 walks, 89 complete games and 31 shutouts.

Oh, and also he also threw 3 no-hitters and a perfect game from 1962-1966.
So if I wanted the greatest pitcher of all time to throw one game for me in
the 7th game of the World Series, I'd pick Koufax in his prime.

Koufax was freaking unhittable. He would start, Rickey would lead off, Eck
would close it out.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"William Wilson" <one RemoveThis @some.com> wrote in message
news:dc6lh05ckuqber640jt2jrhh4unpg4oa1q@4ax.com...
> So far I have not seen Pedro Martinez mentioned. Not that I consider
> Pedro Martinez in the same group as Koufax, being brilliant for a
> short amount of time is impressive, but hardly worthy of being
> compared to the rest of the group in this discussion. The main
> difference between Koufax and Pedro, besides the era, is that Pedro
> benefits from being able to pitch 5-6 innings and shut down, or take
> extended rests whenever the old arm feels the "need". Koufax may have
> been incredibly dominating for a longer period given the right
> circumstances. But sorry, Sox and Dodger fan, still can't include
> them. A few good seasons or tainted stats does not an all-time great
> make. Leave Pedro in two long and he is only mortal. Sandy had the
> good sense to know when his body betrayed him.
> Case in point, Dizzy Dean. Absolutely incredible by all accounts - for
> an unfortunately short time due to injuries.
> This is not to take away from either pitcher.
> Only pointing out that based on stats Nolan Ryan quite possibly could
> be an effective middle-late inning reliever even now since Jesse
> Orosco pulled it off until he was almost 70. LOL.
>
Pedro's like Maddux. Cut aside those over dominating years and then you
still have an excellent pitcher, but not one of "THE" best. Martinez has
come down to earth if you haven't noticed as of late.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Sam Hutcheson" <myfirstname.mylastinitial DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:588dh0tlun9742uus7621944ciog6n502r@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 07:04:43 GMT, "Jeff Plas" <none DeleteThis @spammer.bitch>
> wrote:
>
> >Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for
the
> >greatest pitcher of all time?
>
> walter johnson. no question about it.
>
different era, hard to compare with.....
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"GEO." <Groups.TakeThisOut@theLOCALfolks.com> wrote in message
news:GtbSc.3236$dx5.2942@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> Not only did they throw 300+ innings, they also didn't take much time
> between pitches: I remember Gibson - Jenkins duels where they'd throw a
> pitch, get the ball back from the catcher and another pitch within 15 to
20
> seconds!
>
> They wasted no time on the mound, stayed loose and, threw hard for the
> entire game. Anyone questioning this should watch a game of Gibson's
> delivery to the plate, and he was described by old-timers as not throwing
> harder or faster than Christy Mathewson, Grover Cleveland Alexander,
Lefty
> Grove, Walter Johnson, Bob Feller, Ferguson Jenkins or Catfish Hunter.
>
> These guys threw hard, pitch loads of innings and pitched on two or three
> days rest and hardly ever went on the disabled list!
>
That's because they sucked it up when times were tough on them and their
love for the game kept them going. Not these overpaid primma donnas with
their money grubbing agents of today.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time?