Greatest pitcher of all time?

On 8/9/04 5:37 PM, in article 2nqcmhF3kte0U1.DeleteThis@uni-berlin.de, "Lance
Freezeland" <freezelandlaw.nospam.DeleteThis@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
> Yeah, well, Bob Forsch threw two no-hitters and Bob Gibson only threw
> one, but I think we all know who was the better of those two pitchers,
> don't we?

But when you factor in Forsch'e hitting...

Just kidding.

>
>> Baseball-Reference.com has him listed as 8th.
>
>> http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml
>
>> FWIW, Maddux is listed as 15th.
>
> But there's a difference between "likely to get into the HOF" and
> "great". Just off the top of my head, I'd say Walter Johnson or
> Christy Matthewson or Lefty Grove or Tom Seaver or a couple others
> could all make better claims to that title than Ryan.

Well, Walter Johnson and Christy Matthewson are ranked ahead of him. Seaver
and Grove are 12th and 13th.

I agree, that the the HOF Monitor is probably not the best standard. But I
think longevity counts when you are talking about the greatest ever, which
the HOF factors in.

The claim was made that Ryan would not even be top 20. That didn't sound
right to me. Where would you place him?

Jayhawker
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

In article <BD3D7CF6.28788%rock.chalk@jayhawks.net>, Jayhawker says...

Acknowledging that you were just kidding about Forsch's hitting putting him
ahead of Gibson...Bob Gibson could hit a little, too.

>The claim was made that Ryan would not even be top 20. That didn't sound
>right to me. Where would you place him?

OK--my "Ryan doesn't make the top 20" comment was admittedly offhanded and
unscientific, but I don't think it's clearly mistaken, either.

Here's a list of pitchers I'd *clearly* rank ahead of Ryan, in no particular
order and off the top of my head:

W. Johnson
Young
Mathewson
Alexander
Grove
Hubbell
Spahn
Carlton
Gibson
Seaver
Maddux
Clemens
Martinez
R. Johnson
Koufax

Then, there are some others I'd arguably rank ahead of him:

Palmer
Marichal
Jenkins
Sutton
Niekro
Feller
Three Finger Brown

I'm sure I'm forgetting some others.

I suppose I'm more comfortable saying Ryan's definitely not one of the *15* best
pitchers of all time, but I think leaving him out of the top 20's certainly
defensible. I definitely DON'T think it's beyond dispute that he IS top 20, as
you suggested. I'm pretty sure he ranks somewhere between 15 and 30. That's
hardly a criticism.

And the broader points--1. That there's no reasonable argument that he's the
best pitcher of all time, as one poster suggested, and 2. That he's clearly not
as good as Greg Maddux, are to my mind undisputable.

--BDB
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Brian Bigelow" <Brian_member.DeleteThis@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> I suppose I'm more comfortable saying Ryan's definitely not one of the
*15* best
> pitchers of all time, but I think leaving him out of the top 20's
certainly
> defensible. I definitely DON'T think it's beyond dispute that he IS top
20, as
> you suggested. I'm pretty sure he ranks somewhere between 15 and 30.
That's
> hardly a criticism.

What Ryan points out is how balanced the game of baseball is.

For years, he chucked it up there clearly stating "you won't hit this"
and ...they didn't hit it. Of course he was so wild that he ended up
beating himself just as often as not. So, in the long run, he may not
have been terribly useful for a team trying to win a pennant, but
it was a very different and individual approach that he took to the
game. One that left his fellow players (and everybody who
saw him pitch) in awe of what he could do.

Imagine a catcher that could make contact every time up to the plate
and never strike out. The cost of this skill is that he rarely drives
the ball out of the infield. For every 10 at bats he gets 2 walks,
2 hits, a fly ball out, and 5 balls into the infield. He gets on base,
but the double plays would just kill you. Such a player would be
marvelous fun to watch, but I would rather have my team sign
Barry Bonds.

That's what Nolan Ryan was.

dfs
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:44:12 -0400, Craig Nance <CNanceJD.DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I would take Gibson based in large part on his 1968 season (which IIRC
>was the reason they lowered the mound), but you can't argue with
>Koufax. Too bad he had to leave the game early.

I wouldn't call anyone "Greatest Pitcher Of All Time" based on one
season of success.

Gibson had a great 1968, but so did a lot of other pitchers. That was
the year Denny McLain won 31 games for the Tigers, for example.
Anyway, the general perception was that the pitchers were way ahead of
the hitters and that the lack of offense was boring fans, so the mound
was lowered to try to put more offense back in the game.

>What's amazing to me is that both of them had multiple seasons where
>they pitched over *300 innings*.

Well, this was during the era before teams started pampering pitchers
like they were little leaguers...you know, back when they were still
expected to actually *earn* their salaries.

John D, Kasupski, Tonawanda, NY
Reds Fan Since The 1960's
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

On 9 Aug 2004 18:36:40 -0700, excathedra RemoveThis @eboxmail.net (ex_cathedra)
wrote:

> You're a very well conditioned speck-tater!
>
> However you need not bow down to me.
> I'm just a mere human like you used to be.

I'm inclined to relegate you to a much lower position in the food
chain. I think somewhere between skunk and maggot ought to be just
about right.

>I'm like yer Mommy catchin ya's jerkin off in yer bedroom with the
>Sears catalog.

Actually, you remind me more of the old guy in a rubber raincoat
hanging out down at the corner playground flashing all the little
girls...except he actually had something there for the girls to see.

>Well it is petty and stupid to worship grown men playing baby games
>when your jobs are being shipped out of the country,your pensions are
>being robbed, you lost your inalienable rights,have become usury
>slaves and depending on your age will be drafted to die in an endless
>war as soon as the "election" is over.

Admiration for the skill of an athlete - in any sport - does not
equate to worship. Nor does enjoyment of a game as a form of
recreation equate to worship of the participants in said game.

> Didn't one of your stupid baseball role model icons go to Afghanistan
>to get shot in the back by "friendly fire"?

Number one rule of combat: incoming fire is NEVER friendly.

Incidentally, the individual you have in mind, Pat Tillman, was a
former football player, not a baseball player. He was killed in an
ambush. Furthermore, Tillman played for the Arizona Cardinals from
1998-2001, and voluntarily entered the military (walking away from a
$3.6 million contract in the process) in response to the terrorist
attacks of September 11, 2001...which brings us to: What, if anything,
have YOU done for your country in response to Sept. 11?

> Thats yer role model.
> Get ready to emulate him!

Who's your role model? Larry Flynt?

>Means infallible statement sweetums.
> You're very stupid for attempting to argue what you think I
>_probably_ don't know.
> Let alone basing your feeble case on an internet name.
> Thats for mentally bankrupt bottomfeeders.
>It must work when you're dealing with other professional speck-taters.
> Is that the precursor "Trash Talking" ?
>I understand you speck-taters take great pride in your ability to
>utter your own language of meaninless jibberish.

What language contains "speck-taters" ? only your own language of
meaningless gibberish, I suppose...

> (Appropriately named trash talk btw)

Ah, so now we know exactly what to call the drivel you vomit into this
newsgroup. Thank you ever so much for the clarification.

> It appeals to the intellect of lowest common denominators.
> It's also very attractive to closet homosexuals ....
> Did you know that the young sports icons would compete naked at the
>Olympics ?
> In those days the older men would cornhole the young ones.
> Pro sports were very very sexy. ;-D

Well, if you find the act of younger men cornholing younger ones sexy,
i guess that tells us everything we need to know about you. have a
nice day. See you in the statewide list of registered class three sex
offenders. Try not to molest any little boys on your way to sign up.

>Not that theres anything wrong with that kind of thing mind you =-D

Remember to repeat that in front of the judge at your sentencing
hearing, pedophile.

> The sport of it all is buying young mens souls and watching them
>compete like ants under a magnifying glass to please their masters.

We don't need to ask how you please your master.

>And then theres the insignificant speck-taters who get all worked up
>for no real reason.

Well, you're the one trolling in six baseball newsgroups. What is it
in here that got you all worked up?

Oh, yeah, I remember...lots of guys standing on the field grabbing
their crotches. Works every time with your type.

>Unlike you I use my brain for countless creative endeavors.

Posting here obviously isn't one of them. The lack of any brain power
in your "contribution" to the discussion makes that highly evident.

>You'd be amazed what you could do with your free time,that is if
>you're not busy living vicariously through other peoples lives.

By comparison, you use your free time to do what? Find a cure for
AIDS? Bring an end to The Troubles in Ireland? Invent an alternative
energy source? No, you're here trolling in the baseball newsgroups
while your downloads of kiddie porn are running in the background.
Quite an amazing use of free time - NOT!

> I bet you even believe that competition exists in the business world
>like the coachie woachies say.
>
>F'rinstance Burger King,KFC,Pizza Hut,Taco Bell,and A&W is all owned
>by the same corporation.

That's what's called diversification.

I'll try to explain this in simple terms so that even a person of your
limited mental stature can understand it.

Burger King competes with McDonald's and Wendys. Taco Bell competes
with Mighty Taco. A&W competes with Barqs. KFC competes with Red Barn.
All of which are owned by other corporations. They compete with the
other companies' products/franchises, not with each other. Taco Bell
does not serve pizza, and you can't get a Whopper at KFC.

> But when you see the different colored pretty signs I'm sure it
>restores your faith in your deluded false paradigm of "compettition".

No, it just makes me glad I live in America where I have a choice of
where I want to eat and what I want to eat.

You, of course, would not react the same as I do because you suffer
from the well-known medical condition known as a rectocranial
inversion. This is a condition that is caused by having your head up
your ass too long, and causes you to have a crappy outlook on life.

>Aside from making vauge generalizations based on internet names,and
>not having the smarts to find out what you're talking about with the
>vast rescources the internet provides,you're not even a good guesser!

Practice what you preach. Have the smarts to discover the
spell-checking button so that you will at least give the appearance of
literacy by not posting such laughable errors as "vauge" instead of
"vague" and "rescources" instead of "resoources".

> See how weak your mind gets when you're nothing more than a skillfull
>speck-tater?

See how weak your mind gets when you are nothing more than an
unskilled homosexual pedophile?

>Go watch a man fetch a ball.
>It's more yer speed.

It sure beat watching a man play with his balls, although I have no
doubt that you will strongly disagree.

>And when "your"team wins you'll get a shiny penny!
>(Actually you don't even get that for your misdirected loyalty)
>While your family and children lose their future I might add.

Something I'm sure a person of your stature needn't worry about.

John D, Kasupski, Tonawanda, NY
Reds Fan Since The 1960's
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Not only did they throw 300+ innings, they also didn't take much time
between pitches: I remember Gibson - Jenkins duels where they'd throw a
pitch, get the ball back from the catcher and another pitch within 15 to 20
seconds!

They wasted no time on the mound, stayed loose and, threw hard for the
entire game. Anyone questioning this should watch a game of Gibson's
delivery to the plate, and he was described by old-timers as not throwing
harder or faster than Christy Mathewson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Lefty
Grove, Walter Johnson, Bob Feller, Ferguson Jenkins or Catfish Hunter.

These guys threw hard, pitch loads of innings and pitched on two or three
days rest and hardly ever went on the disabled list!

GEO.
www.theLOCALfolks.com


"John Kasupski" <kc2hmz.RemoveThis@wzrd.com> wrote in message
news:iabih05mvg4da6pqoqoriogd6ndeo43gu3@4ax.com...
: On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:44:12 -0400, Craig Nance <CNanceJD.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
: wrote:
:
: >I would take Gibson based in large part on his 1968 season (which IIRC
: >was the reason they lowered the mound), but you can't argue with
: >Koufax. Too bad he had to leave the game early.
:
: I wouldn't call anyone "Greatest Pitcher Of All Time" based on one
: season of success.
:
: Gibson had a great 1968, but so did a lot of other pitchers. That was
: the year Denny McLain won 31 games for the Tigers, for example.
: Anyway, the general perception was that the pitchers were way ahead of
: the hitters and that the lack of offense was boring fans, so the mound
: was lowered to try to put more offense back in the game.
:
: >What's amazing to me is that both of them had multiple seasons where
: >they pitched over *300 innings*.
:
: Well, this was during the era before teams started pampering pitchers
: like they were little leaguers...you know, back when they were still
: expected to actually *earn* their salaries.
:
: John D, Kasupski, Tonawanda, NY
: Reds Fan Since The 1960's
:
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

In article <GtbSc.3236$dx5.2942@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
Groups DeleteThis @theLOCALfolks.com says...
> Not only did they throw 300+ innings, they also didn't take much time
> between pitches: I remember Gibson - Jenkins duels where they'd throw a
> pitch, get the ball back from the catcher and another pitch within 15 to 20
> seconds!
>
> They wasted no time on the mound, stayed loose and, threw hard for the
> entire game. Anyone questioning this should watch a game of Gibson's
> delivery to the plate, and he was described by old-timers as not throwing
> harder or faster than Christy Mathewson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Lefty
> Grove, Walter Johnson, Bob Feller, Ferguson Jenkins or Catfish Hunter.
>
> These guys threw hard, pitch loads of innings and pitched on two or three
> days rest and hardly ever went on the disabled list!

In essence, you're arguing that the players that survived the
workload of the times were the ones that survived the workload of the
times.

It's akin to going to a WWII veterans reuinion and declaring that
since everyone there is alive, WWII wasn't all that dangerous.

And even in your cherry-picked examples, you have a pitcher who was
done by the time he was 30 and another who was done as a Hall of
Famer by then, too.


--
Dan Szymborski
dan DeleteThis @baseballprimerREMOVE.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."
- Robert Schumann
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Please be more specific regarding those that were "done".

GEO.
www.theLOCALfolks.com

"Dan Szymborski" <dan DeleteThis @REMOVEbaseballprimer.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b8322439099e9b89896ab@216.196.97.142 says...
..
:
: And even in your cherry-picked examples, you have a pitcher who was
: done by the time he was 30 and another who was done as a Hall of
: Famer by then, too.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Jeff Plas" <none RemoveThis @spammer.bitch> wrote in message news:<fgkRc.446$1W4.55@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>...

Who's your vote for the greatest pitcher of all time?
> Jeff


.... My vote goes to Lefty Grove. Nine times an ERA leader, nine times
an ERA+ leader -- all of this during (arguably) the most
hitter-dominated era in baseball history, and all of this in
hitter-friendly parks (Shibe and Fenway).

1-Grove
2-Clemens
3-Johnson
4-Maddux
5-Mathewson
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Dick Sidbury <drjamessidbury.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2nnvq3F2sp8kU1.DeleteThis@uni-berlin.de>...
> Craig Nance wrote:
>
> >
> > I would take Gibson based in large part on his 1968 season (which IIRC
> > was the reason they lowered the mound), but you can't argue with
> > Koufax. Too bad he had to leave the game early.
> >
> > What's amazing to me is that both of them had multiple seasons where
> > they pitched over *300 innings*.
> Check out Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourne in 1884 (I think). He had
> something like 680 innings! 72 complete games, 67 wins, a couple of saves.

Not close to a record.

We know Pud Galvin threw well over 900 inning
for Buffalo in 1878. We just don't know exactly how many he threw.

(72-25 in the IA for a team that played 116 games. Of course most
of the decisions were complete games and he had a few non-decisions.)

10-5 against NL competition as well. And those games weren't exhibitions
to Buffalo. They were aiming for NL membership.

Radbourne's 71 decision season is made more interesting when you realize
that the schedule wa shorter

His season is even more remarkable because he was suspended by the team
(July 16th. Hit his catcher after he'd dropped a 3rd strike. Radbourne
was 30-8 at the time). Most teams were going with 3 pitchers at the time.
Providence was pretty much going with 2 -- and their number 2 guy might
well have been the second best pitcher in baseba;;.

On July 21 (ie with Radbourne still suspended. Sweeney was 17-8.) Charlie
Sweeney -- their other star pitcher showed up at the park hung over.
He started anyway(No real good choices). He was drinking pretty heavily
between innings and was not terribly effective.

He couldn't be replaced without the permission of the other team
(one reason for all of Radbourne's complete games) and Sweeney
refused to go to RF - where the emergency pitcher was playing.

Eventually Sweeney just walked off the field - leaving Providence a man
short. He was evidently angling for a raise or his release. He got
his release (and signed a big contract in the AA. Then blew his arm out)

Providence started negotiations with Radbourne. They agreed to pay him
for his suspension *and* Sweeney's current salary and he
was to essentially go it alone. There were 39 games left and Radbourne
would start 35 and throw in a 4 inning relief appearance. (This appearance
may be the discrepancy between the 59/60 wins. I believe he was credited
with a win at the time.)

Several people (myself included) have made comments that seem to
say it was easy to pitch the huge number of innings that was
common before 1920.

When Radbourne woke up he usually couldn't raise his arm high enough to comb
his hair (this according to his manager). He'd show up hours before game
time. It took him at least two hours to get his arm loose enough to pitch.

He'd start by applying hot towels to his arm. Then he'd soft toss an iron
ball (underhand) for several minutes. Then he'd start tossing the ball.
Started a few feet away and would gradually increase the distance until
he was throwing from the outfield to the plate.

By the end of the year he couldn't raise his hand to his ear.

Radbourne was also primarily responsible for most of the changes made
to the pitcher's box.

He'd stand at the right rear of the box with his back to the
batter and then take a kind of hop, skip to the left front. Kind of
like a shot-putter. Not only did he get some really weird angles, but
it had to be murder to pick up the ball. Craig Wright has speculated
that the delivery helped him handle the load by taking a bunch
of strain off his arm.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

John Kasupski <kc2hmz RemoveThis @wzrd.com> wrote in message news:<iabih05mvg4da6pqoqoriogd6ndeo43gu3 RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:44:12 -0400, Craig Nance <CNanceJD RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >What's amazing to me is that both of them had multiple seasons where
> >they pitched over *300 innings*.
>
> Well, this was during the era before teams started pampering pitchers
> like they were little leaguers...you know, back when they were still
> expected to actually *earn* their salaries.

Of course most pitchers in the 60s weren't capable of handling the workload
that was handed out. Jim Maloney, Steve Barber and Chris Short (to name
but a few) were a lot more typical of the 60s than Jenkins and Gibson.

I hasten to add that the 60s are of limited value in telling us what a pitcher
today could handle. Take Steve Hargan. Everybody's heard of Tommy John
surgery right. Hargan had the surgery before John. It just didn't work for
Hargan. But the lessons learned from Hargan were successfully applied
to John. Hargan would probably have had a career of some length
had he been around today.

And how many casualties of the 60s would have had their careers saved
with a simple 'scope when the trouble first started?

Here's an interesting comment from Bill James (and James is a distict un-fan
of current trends in the handling of pitchers)

"Higuera, I suspect, is one of the half-dozen pitchers in our
generation who can work eight or ten innings a start without being
destroyed by it. The way that managers have tested the limits of
starting pitchers for the last century is quite a bit like the way
they used to test for witches, by pond dunking. You ever read about
that? If a woman (or a person, usually a woman) was suspected of
being a witch, they'd tie her to a pole and dunk her in the pond. If
she survived for several minutes underwater, then she was a witch and
should be stoned or burned at the stake or whatever. If she drowned,
then you knew she was innocent. Of course, the woman was dead, but at
least you knew where you stood with her.

That's how managers used to test starting pitchers, and to some
extent still do -- just throw them out there and let them pitch. In
each generation there are a handful of pitchers who can start
thirty-five or forty times a year and pitch seven innings a start -- a
handful, but no more than a handful. If you try that and it ruins the
pitcher's arm, then you know he's not one of those pitchers. Managers
establish as a normal workload the workload that Jack Morris and Teddy
Higuera are capable of handling, but which destroys most pitchers in a
year or two. They're a little better about it now, but there are
still an awful lot of young pitchers whose arms are ruined by managers
who are under pressure to win now, and who don't see any point in
making sure that the pitcher isn't overloaded."

Ironically, he wrote it in 1988 -- the last year Higuera made 30
starts or pitched 180 innings. Apparently even he wasn't one of the
handful...
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Ron Johnson wrote:

> Dick Sidbury <drjamessidbury RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2nnvq3F2sp8kU1 RemoveThis @uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>Craig Nance wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I would take Gibson based in large part on his 1968 season (which IIRC
>>>was the reason they lowered the mound), but you can't argue with
>>>Koufax. Too bad he had to leave the game early.
>>>
>>>What's amazing to me is that both of them had multiple seasons where
>>>they pitched over *300 innings*.
>>
>>Check out Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourne in 1884 (I think). He had
>>something like 680 innings! 72 complete games, 67 wins, a couple of saves.
>
>
> Not close to a record.
>
> We know Pud Galvin threw well over 900 inning
> for Buffalo in 1878. We just don't know exactly how many he threw.
>
> (72-25 in the IA for a team that played 116 games. Of course most
> of the decisions were complete games and he had a few non-decisions.)
>
> 10-5 against NL competition as well. And those games weren't exhibitions
> to Buffalo. They were aiming for NL membership.
>
> Radbourne's 71 decision season is made more interesting when you realize
> that the schedule wa shorter
>
> His season is even more remarkable because he was suspended by the team
> (July 16th. Hit his catcher after he'd dropped a 3rd strike. Radbourne
> was 30-8 at the time). Most teams were going with 3 pitchers at the time.
> Providence was pretty much going with 2 -- and their number 2 guy might
> well have been the second best pitcher in baseba;;.
>
> On July 21 (ie with Radbourne still suspended. Sweeney was 17-8.) Charlie
> Sweeney -- their other star pitcher showed up at the park hung over.
> He started anyway(No real good choices). He was drinking pretty heavily
> between innings and was not terribly effective.
>
> He couldn't be replaced without the permission of the other team
> (one reason for all of Radbourne's complete games) and Sweeney
> refused to go to RF - where the emergency pitcher was playing.
>
> Eventually Sweeney just walked off the field - leaving Providence a man
> short. He was evidently angling for a raise or his release. He got
> his release (and signed a big contract in the AA. Then blew his arm out)
>
> Providence started negotiations with Radbourne. They agreed to pay him
> for his suspension *and* Sweeney's current salary and he
> was to essentially go it alone. There were 39 games left and Radbourne
> would start 35 and throw in a 4 inning relief appearance. (This appearance
> may be the discrepancy between the 59/60 wins. I believe he was credited
> with a win at the time.)
>
> Several people (myself included) have made comments that seem to
> say it was easy to pitch the huge number of innings that was
> common before 1920.
>
> When Radbourne woke up he usually couldn't raise his arm high enough to comb
> his hair (this according to his manager). He'd show up hours before game
> time. It took him at least two hours to get his arm loose enough to pitch.
>
> He'd start by applying hot towels to his arm. Then he'd soft toss an iron
> ball (underhand) for several minutes. Then he'd start tossing the ball.
> Started a few feet away and would gradually increase the distance until
> he was throwing from the outfield to the plate.
>
> By the end of the year he couldn't raise his hand to his ear.
>
> Radbourne was also primarily responsible for most of the changes made
> to the pitcher's box.
>
> He'd stand at the right rear of the box with his back to the
> batter and then take a kind of hop, skip to the left front. Kind of
> like a shot-putter. Not only did he get some really weird angles, but
> it had to be murder to pick up the ball. Craig Wright has speculated
> that the delivery helped him handle the load by taking a bunch
> of strain off his arm.

Great post, Ron. Entertaining and informative on the 1884 season of
"Old Hoss." Note on rules in 1884: In 1883, the pitcher was allowed
to deliver the ball overhand for the first time, and in 1884 all
restrictions on his delivery were removed. Also in 1884 the pitching
distance was 50' and it took 6 called balls to walk a batter. The
pitchers box you mention was 6' square (36 sq. ft.) and the pitcher
could move around and deliver the ball from anywhere within it.
http://baseball-almanac.com/rulechng.shtml

Johnny <The past is prologue>
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"GEO." <Groups RemoveThis @theLOCALfolks.com> wrote in message
news:IWcSc.5348$3B1.606@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...

>
> "Dan Szymborski" <dan RemoveThis @REMOVEbaseballprimer.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1b8322439099e9b89896ab@216.196.97.142 says...
> .
> :
> : And even in your cherry-picked examples, you have a pitcher who was
> : done by the time he was 30 and another who was done as a Hall of
> : Famer by then, too.
>
>
> Please be more specific regarding those that were "done".
>
> GEO.


Catfish Hunter was pretty much done at 30.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hunteca01.shtml

Koufax quit at 30 [That was from the Kasupski part of the post]
http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/koufasa01.shtml
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time?