Greatest pitcher of all time?

"Jeff Plas" <none.TakeThisOut@spammer.bitch> wrote:

> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for
> the
> greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in
> history,
> but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn? Ryan? Carlton?
> Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens, or Johnson? Who's
> your
> vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but not by much.

Greg Maddux, especially if we consider the different eras involved.

Jolly Rogers
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Off the top of my head, some others who belong in the discussion include:

Grover Cleveland Alexander
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Sandy Koufax
Juan Marichal
Bob Gibson
Jim Palmer

I'm somewhat biased against the current crop of pitchers due to the fact
that so much less has been demanded of them. (I know, it's not really their
fault, but that's how it goes.) Going six or seven innings every fifth day
just doesn't impress me a whole lot in comparison to the monumental feats
accomplished by the great pitchers of earlier decades.

So who makes my short list?

Young
Alexander
Mathewson
W. Johnson
Koufax
Seaver
Ryan (this is a major stretch but how can you ignore SEVEN no-hitters? 5,714
strikeouts? 27 years in the big leagues? No way is he the greatest of all
time, but he's an absolute larger-than-life freak of mythical proportions.)

You didn't specify which Johnson you liked best--IMO Walter has Randy beat
nine ways to Sunday, and in fact The Big Train is my overall choice. The
numbers reflect an unparalleled combination of masterful dominance and
longevity, and just imagine if he'd actually played on a halfway decent
team!

***************
Rick Steinberg
Angel fan in the shadow of Dodger Stadium....

"Jeff Plas" <none RemoveThis @spammer.bitch> wrote in message
news:fgkRc.446$1W4.55@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for
the
> greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in history,
> but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn? Ryan? Carlton?
> Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens, or Johnson? Who's
your
> vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but not by much.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

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 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

<bubbamike_01 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> Of course you ignore the fact that in "The Good Old Days" pitchers
> didn't need to go all out for the entire game, they could pick and
> chose their spots. There are a lot fewer easy outs today than then. So
> even though today's pitcher may only pitch 7 innings he is putting out
> 100% throughout the game where someone like Walter Johnson only had to
> do that against the better hitters.

That is a great analysis of one of the many differences in eras. Good
post.

Jolly Rogers
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Jeff Plas wrote:
> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for the
> greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in history,
> but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn? Ryan? Carlton?
> Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens, or Johnson? Who's your
> vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but not by much.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
I don't think you can make good comparisons between pitchers of 75 years
ago and pitchers of today. From your list I'd eliminate Paige because
comparing Negro League to MLB is too hard to do (eventhough he may in
fact have been the best). IMHO Perry, Ryan, and Carlton don't deserve
to make the final cut but maybe Pete Alexander and Lefty Grove do.
Among the "ancient" pitchers I'd probably choose the big train. Among
modern pitchers I'd probably choose Seaver although I think an
interesting argument could also include Clemens and Maddux. And Maddux
is now 38(?) and after age 38 (baseball age) Spahn won 97 games, pitched
95 complete games and had 16 shutouts, so while I doubt that Maddux
will age as well as Spahn, if he did then he could easily claim first place.

dick
--and from 1947 through 1963 Spahn had 1 14 win season, a 15 win season,
a 17 win season, an 18 win season and 13 seasons of 20 or more wins,
IMHO a much more impressive record than 15 wins for 16 consecutive years.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:41:09 -0500, "Jolly Rogers"
<jollyrogers.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> thought hard and said:

>"Jeff Plas" <none.TakeThisOut@spammer.bitch> wrote:
>
>> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for
>> the
>> greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in
>> history,
>> but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn? Ryan? Carlton?
>> Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens, or Johnson? Who's
>> your
>> vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but not by much.
>
>Greg Maddux, especially if we consider the different eras involved.

Come on now, Jolly. Maddux is good, certainly, but not the greatest of
all time.

>Jolly Rogers

--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

"Charles Beauchamp" <C.E.Beauchamp DeleteThis @NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in news:g-
ydnTTYPo2PSojcRVn-tA DeleteThis @comcast.com:

> Jeff Plas wrote:
>> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote
>> for the greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone
>> in history, but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn?
>> Ryan? Carlton? Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens,
>> or Johnson? Who's your vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but
>> not by much.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> 1. Walter Johnson
> 1a. Christy Mathewson
>

1b. Lefty Grove

Don't forget that Grove pitched for a very long time in what was then
considered the "minor" leagues, with the Baltimore Orioles, in the 1920's a
very powerful team and organization, which refused to sell him to the
majors for several years.

He didn't make his ML debut till age 25, and though he pitched 17 years, he
probably could have had three or four more.

--
"I already forgot 2003. You can't live the present and the future thinking
about the past." -- Dusty Baker, February 19, 2004
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rants, comments, reviews: || To contact me use the following:
http://www.yellon.org/links.htm || itghtfr02 (at) sneakemail (dot) com
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

> You didn't specify which Johnson you liked best--IMO Walter has Randy beat
> nine ways to Sunday, and in fact The Big Train is my overall choice. The
> numbers reflect an unparalleled combination of masterful dominance and
> longevity, and just imagine if he'd actually played on a halfway decent
> team!
>

Yup, sorry, and agreed. Was talking about Walter

Jeff
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Jeff Plas wrote:
> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for the
> greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone in history,
> but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn? Ryan? Carlton?
> Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens, or Johnson? Who's your
> vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but not by much.
>
> Jeff
>
>



>
>


Since the very large majority of us have never seen many of the great
pitchers. The only way any decision can be made on this is purely
subjective. Unless someone is very old, the only way they could select
someone like Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, or even Cy Young is
purely on reputation and legend, some of which can be disputed.

Stats from that era cannot be compared straight up with the stats of
more latter day pitchers. It's almost apples and oranges because of the
plethora of mitigating factors, like expansion, night games, releif
specialists, bigger and stronger hitters and the abundance of money that
has affected the way the game is played.

At the same time, many people would choose as the greatest pitcher
someone that they have seen, more than likely someone that they grew up
watching.

This is one of those questions that can be argued for years and never
reach a consensus.

As for me, I never had the opportuity to see some of the old greats, but
I've never seen a pitcher control the game and dominate the opposition
like Koufax. Just my opinion,however.
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

You've got to be kidding! Athletes today are stronger as a result of weight
training, better conditioning and better nourishment; however, their senses,
reflexes and abilities are not better than previous generations (I could
easily argue the opposite).

The power numbers and longer careers reflect the expansion era, while weight
training and drugs such as steroids reflect greater power. There is a reason
that power numbers, especially home runs, batting average, era and strike
outs always increase whenever there is expansion.

The game has changed dramatically since 1870, since 1900, the deadball era,
the post WWII era, the pre-expansion era and again with each subsequent
expansion.

The development of a minor league system during the 1940's by Branch Rickey
had a huge effect on the game. The development of the baseball draft in the
mid 1960's changed the major and minor league systems and affected player
salaries. The organization of the players union in the late 1960's
eventually changed everything about the game, its' players, salaries,
marketing, teams, cities and the fans.

The best way to measure player performance is within their respective era
due to the enormous differences since inception of the game. Several
baseball encyclopedias break down the specific era's and provide a
description of the changes and a complete statistical analysis of each
baseball era.

GEO.
www.theLOCALfolks.com


<bubbamike_01 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nj2ch0lnnjp3u4u23mqoak0mkrp51h8sji@4ax.com...
: On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 08:50:44 GMT, "Eric Steinberg"
: <estein DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote:
:
: >I'm somewhat biased against the current crop of pitchers due to the fact
: >that so much less has been demanded of them. (I know, it's not really
their
: >fault, but that's how it goes.) Going six or seven innings every fifth
day
: >just doesn't impress me a whole lot in comparison to the monumental feats
: >accomplished by the great pitchers of earlier decades.
:
: Of course you ignore the fact that in "The Good Old Days" pitchers
: didn't need to go all out for the entire game, they could pick and
: chose their spots. There are a lot fewer easy outs today than then. So
: even though today's pitcher may only pitch 7 innings he is putting out
: 100% throughout the game where someone like Walter Johnson only had to
: do that against the better hitters.
:
:
: --
: BubbaRumDum
: ----------------------------------------------------------
: |"Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business
: | and too much of a business to be a sport."
: | William Wrigley Jr.
: ----------------------------------------------------------
:
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 07:04:43 GMT, "Jeff Plas" <none.RemoveThis@spammer.bitch>
wrote:

>Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote for the
>greatest pitcher of all time?

walter johnson. no question about it.

s/

*****

"[I]f we don't cast our votes about Guantanamo, and Abu Ghraib
and those torture memos, we will someday look back on this election
as emblematic of a national moral failure. What is at stake, in this
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ruled by law as opposed to rulers. This isn't just a voting issue.
It's what used to launch revolutions." -- Dahlia Lithwick, 07/28/04
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Jeff Plas wrote:
> Maddux's 300th got my mother in law and I talking. Who's your vote
> for the greatest pitcher of all time? Cy's got more wins than anyone
> in history, but also has more losses. Johnson? Mathewson? Spahn?
> Ryan? Carlton? Perry? Sever? Paige? Or could it be Maddux, Clemens,
> or Johnson? Who's your vote? I'd probably give mine to Johnson, but
> not by much.

Greatest pitcher? That's a rough one. I will go with Nolan Ryan for #1,
Roger Clemens for #2.

In the realm of "pitching career ended too short", I will go with Babe Ruth
for #1 (he was a great lefty), and an honorable mention to "career lost to
drug abuse" for Dwight Gooden.




--
_____________________________________
Hotel sheets, rental cars, late flights, fast food.
What's not to love about consulting?!?!?
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time? 

Road Warrior wrote:
> Jeff Plas wrote:
In the realm of "pitching career ended too short", I will go with
Babe Ruth
> for #1 (he was a great lefty), and an honorable mention to "career lost to
> drug abuse" for Dwight Gooden.
>
>
>
> Babe Ruth's pitching stats come up every few years as one of those trivia questions.
If I remember correctly, he holds four records that will probably never
be broke. Most complete games in one season, 35 in 1917. Most innings
pitched in a World Series game, 14 in 1916 series. Lowest ERA for a
left-hander in one season, 1.75, (Minimum of 300 IP) Cannot remember,
or find anything on the fourth record. But, he decided he wanted to
play every day, and pretty much quit pitching.

Gary
 >> Stay informed about: Greatest pitcher of all time?