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External
Since: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 99
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:35 pm
Post subject: How to Get Good Press
Archived from groups: rec>sport>baseball (more info?)
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There was an amazing article in the NY Times this morning, the headline of
which was "WNBA Exceeded Its High Expectations." The ways in which the league
exceeded those high expectations was that scoring was up by 0.5 points per game
per team, and turnovers were down by 1.1 per game. Seriously; that's the
evidence given, along with the fact that the championship game drew a record
crowd.
Meanwhile, the piece notes in an aside, "... although attendance declined to
8,830 a game from 9,228, the league's overall attendance exceeded two million
for the fourth consecutive year."
There was no mention anywhere in the article of TV ratings.
So why did the WNBA exceed its high expectations? Because the commissioner goes
on and on about how competitive this season was, and how exciting the games
were. And also, I suspect, because the reporter loves the WNBA and wants to see
it flourish.
In the real world, the WNBA season was somewhere between a disaster and a
disappointment. Despite the fact that the two weakest franchises in the league
folded before the season, attendance still declined on a per-game basis. If the
Expos and Devil Rays folded, and MLB's per-game attendance figures still
dropped by 4.3 percent, do you think any papers would be writing stories about
how baseball exceeded its high expectations?
Apparently, they would if Bud Selig would get out there and talk about what a
great sport it is.
Tom Nawrocki |
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Since: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 17 Sep 2003 17:35:07 GMT, tjnawrocki DeleteThis @aol.compost (TJNawrocki) wrote in
<20030917133507.17992.00000884 DeleteThis @mb-m25.aol.com>:
<snip>
>So why did the WNBA exceed its high expectations? Because the commissioner goes
>on and on about how competitive this season was, and how exciting the games
>were. And also, I suspect, because the reporter loves the WNBA and wants to see
>it flourish.
>
Is it so incredible to believe that some people actually enjoy the WNBA? Or do
you just think I am one of the victims of David Stern's brainwashing, and I'd
really rather spend my time doing something else?
>In the real world, the WNBA season was somewhere between a disaster and a
>disappointment. Despite the fact that the two weakest franchises in the league
>folded before the season, attendance still declined on a per-game basis.
Believe it or not, there are people on Earth who do not equate quality of play
with popularity. Even before the WNBA, I was aware of this principle (mostly
because I am a fan of Tom Waits). Some of us think the sport is a success only
if it offers a good product -- and if the masses don't buy into it, well, so
much for the masses.
[...]
--
--------------------------------
| best, | Sticking it to |
| ed | The Man since 1971 |
--------------------------------
Watch the spam trap -- the domain is rogers |
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Since: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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[igor eduardo küpfer (strudel@example.com)]
[Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:24:22 GMT]
:>In the real world, the WNBA season was somewhere between a disaster and a
:>disappointment. Despite the fact that the two weakest franchises in the league
:>folded before the season, attendance still declined on a per-game basis.
:
:Believe it or not, there are people on Earth who do not equate quality of play
:with popularity. Even before the WNBA, I was aware of this principle (mostly
:because I am a fan of Tom Waits). Some of us think the sport is a success only
:if it offers a good product -- and if the masses don't buy into it, well, so
:much for the masses.
What product is it offering? Some Title IX-ish play that wouldn't be
able to compete with the average Division III men's team?
If I'm going to plunk money down to watch professional athletes, I want
to see a product commensurate with the amount of money spent. You don't
get that with the WNBA, unless they're only charging $5 for tickets.
The WNBA exists because of some misguided notion that there's an
equality issue. Playing professional sports is not a RIGHT.. it's not
about equality. If it were, I'd be filing suit for the creation of a
league for 30-year-old short (relatively.. 6'0") white guys who can't
jump or drive the lane. Where's MY payday?!!? HUH?! I AM BEING
OPPRESSED!!!
--
Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 148
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:54 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Well, to be fair, the expectations for the WNBA are incredibly low. For the
most part journalists continue to give David Stern the benefit of the doubt
in running the NBA and its associated properties(which include the WNBA). I
also think there is a hint of political correctness in the coverage of a
women's league that is for the most part covered by male sports journalists.
Most journalists hold MLB to a different standard as they remember it from
their youth in the 50's and 60's when baseball was still the country's
number one sport. I'm not saying it's fair, just the way things are. >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 403
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Bryan S. Slick wrote:
->If I'm going to plunk money down to watch professional athletes, I want
->to see a product commensurate with the amount of money spent. You don't
->get that with the WNBA, unless they're only charging $5 for tickets.
I was invited to a WNBA game a few weeks ago, and I happily went. IIRC the
price was around $7.00. That wasn't bad at all. It was a reasonable way to
spend a few hours, though the play was sloppier than what you would see at
a college basketball game. Lots of turnovers and forced shots, poor shots,
that sort of thing for the most part. There were a few women who were
pretty good, though. I forget her name, but there's one girl for Seattle
who shoots really well off the dribble. About four of the women seemed to
have some rather nice basketball skills. The rest were specialists who,
well...just weren't particularly good.
But it was still entertaining. I wouldn't mind going again for that price.
--
M. Zaiem Beg zbeg DeleteThis @iglou.com
The oh so very proud sponsor of the Pete Rose page at
baseball-reference.com >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:02:24 -0400, Bryan S. Slick <bryan_s.RemoveThis@slick-family.not>
wrote in <MPG.19d279cca49753c498997e.RemoveThis@news-east.giganews.com>:
>[igor eduardo küpfer (strudel@example.com)]
>[Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:24:22 GMT]
>
>:>In the real world, the WNBA season was somewhere between a disaster and a
>:>disappointment. Despite the fact that the two weakest franchises in the league
>:>folded before the season, attendance still declined on a per-game basis.
>:
>:Believe it or not, there are people on Earth who do not equate quality of play
>:with popularity. Even before the WNBA, I was aware of this principle (mostly
>:because I am a fan of Tom Waits). Some of us think the sport is a success only
>:if it offers a good product -- and if the masses don't buy into it, well, so
>:much for the masses.
>
>What product is it offering? Some Title IX-ish play that wouldn't be
>able to compete with the average Division III men's team?
>
Some of us are tired of the men's game, with the isolation offenses and
no-lay-up defenses. Some of us like to watch motion ball, with cuts and off
the ball movement. Some of us like an offensive set that requires more than
two passes. Some of us like watching defenses based on team positioning, not
individual athleticism.
Maybe not your cuppa, but to accuse me of wishful thinking is ludicrous.
<snip>
>The WNBA exists because of some misguided notion that there's an
>equality issue.
Yeah, that's right. If it weren't for my membership in the Susan Faludi Fan
Club, I wouldn't watch women's sports. Right. It's not like I get any
entertainment out of it or anything.
> Playing professional sports is not a RIGHT.. it's not
>about equality. If it were, I'd be filing suit for the creation of a
>league for 30-year-old short (relatively.. 6'0") white guys who can't
>jump or drive the lane. Where's MY payday?!!? HUH?! I AM BEING
>OPPRESSED!!!
Huh?
--
--------------------------------
| best, | Sticking it to |
| ed | The Man since 1971 |
--------------------------------
Watch the spam trap -- the domain is rogers >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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[igor eduardo küpfer (strudel@example.com)]
[Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:16:33 GMT]
:>The WNBA exists because of some misguided notion that there's an
:>equality issue.
:
:Yeah, that's right. If it weren't for my membership in the Susan Faludi Fan
:Club, I wouldn't watch women's sports. Right. It's not like I get any
:entertainment out of it or anything.
You are one person. Arguing a point and using yourself as "proof"
against the main point is using an awfully small sample. A better
sample would be to compare the league's attendance with other leagues..
or even with itself in previous years. This has been done, and the
numbers are not good for the WNBA.
I get entertainment out of watching lots of things.. that doesn't mean
that people should be paid tens of thousands of dollars for doing them.
--
Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Sep 03, 2003
Posts: 437
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"igor eduardo küpfer" wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:02:24 -0400, Bryan S. Slick <bryan_s RemoveThis @slick-family.not>
> wrote in <MPG.19d279cca49753c498997e RemoveThis @news-east.giganews.com>:
>
> >[igor eduardo küpfer (strudel@example.com)]
> >[Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:24:22 GMT]
> >
> >:>In the real world, the WNBA season was somewhere between a disaster and a
> >:>disappointment. Despite the fact that the two weakest franchises in the league
> >:>folded before the season, attendance still declined on a per-game basis.
> >:
> >:Believe it or not, there are people on Earth who do not equate quality of play
> >:with popularity. Even before the WNBA, I was aware of this principle (mostly
> >:because I am a fan of Tom Waits). Some of us think the sport is a success only
> >:if it offers a good product -- and if the masses don't buy into it, well, so
> >:much for the masses.
> >
> >What product is it offering? Some Title IX-ish play that wouldn't be
> >able to compete with the average Division III men's team?
> >
>
> Some of us are tired of the men's game, with the isolation offenses and
> no-lay-up defenses. Some of us like to watch motion ball, with cuts and off
> the ball movement. Some of us like an offensive set that requires more than
> two passes. Some of us like watching defenses based on team positioning, not
> individual athleticism.
They don't move away from the ball in the men's game? They don't have
cuts? Sure fooled me when I've gone. The main difference is that they
have to run different *PLAYS* each time down instead of simple motion
offenses with no plays, because everybody in the NBA knows how to defend
it.
Sometimes, yes, they'll try to get a mismatch and run an isolation set.
That's not all that common now, though it's hard to appreciate on TV.
--
Thanks for your time,
Eric Opperman
"I've got a job to do, and that's part of it. I've got a special feeling
for Sidney, and I will in 20 years--unless he blows up my house or
something." -- Baltimore Orioles manager Mike Hargrove on telling Sidney
Ponson he'd been traded to the Giants. >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 109
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Bryan S. Slick" <bryan_s.TakeThisOut@slick-family.not> wrote in message
news:MPG.19d295e5c8e1b87989983@news-east.giganews.com...
[igor eduardo küpfer (strudel@example.com)]
[Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:16:33 GMT]
:>The WNBA exists because of some misguided notion that there's an
:>equality issue.
:
:Yeah, that's right. If it weren't for my membership in the Susan Faludi Fan
:Club, I wouldn't watch women's sports. Right. It's not like I get any
:entertainment out of it or anything.
>You are one person. Arguing a point and using yourself as "proof"
>against the main point is using an awfully small sample. A better
>sample would be to compare the league's attendance with other leagues..
>or even with itself in previous years. This has been done, and the
>numbers are not good for the WNBA.
>I get entertainment out of watching lots of things.. that doesn't mean
>that people should be paid tens of thousands of dollars for doing them.
I don't see what you're going on about, Slick. I mean, it's a
self-regulating kinda thing, isn't it? They'll get paid according to where
the market values them. It's not like the WNBA is being subsidized by
federal grants or something, so what are you so upset about?
Perry >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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[Perry Sailor (perry.sailor@colorado.edu)]
[Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:19:28 -0600]
:I don't see what you're going on about, Slick. I mean, it's a
:self-regulating kinda thing, isn't it? They'll get paid according to where
:the market values them. It's not like the WNBA is being subsidized by
:federal grants or something, so what are you so upset about?
:Perry
Actually, the WNBA *is* being subsidized.. by the NBA. The league has
yet to make a profit. Your Los Angeles Lakers (or whatever) ticket is
higher (by whatever amount) because of the Los Angeles Sparkz (team
name?).
--
Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 95
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 9/17/03 4:42 PM, in article
MPG.19d29f6ac41ea643989985.RemoveThis@news-east.giganews.com, "Bryan S. Slick"
<bryan_s.RemoveThis@slick-family.not> wrote:
> [Perry Sailor (perry.sailor@colorado.edu)]
> [Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:19:28 -0600]
>
> :I don't see what you're going on about, Slick. I mean, it's a
> :self-regulating kinda thing, isn't it? They'll get paid according to where
> :the market values them. It's not like the WNBA is being subsidized by
> :federal grants or something, so what are you so upset about?
> :Perry
>
> Actually, the WNBA *is* being subsidized.. by the NBA. The league has
> yet to make a profit. Your Los Angeles Lakers (or whatever) ticket is
> higher (by whatever amount) because of the Los Angeles Sparkz (team
> name?).
Uh oh! Now you're going to get a lesson on how markets set ticket prices.
Withrow >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Jul 04, 2003
Posts: 62
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Bryan S. Slick <bryan_s.RemoveThis@slick-family.not> wrote:
>Actually, the WNBA *is* being subsidized.. by the NBA. The league has
>yet to make a profit. Your Los Angeles Lakers (or whatever) ticket is
>higher (by whatever amount) because of the Los Angeles Sparkz (team
>name?).
So, if the LA women's team folded tomorrow you think the Lakers
ownership would drop prices to the Laker games? Suuuure they will.
The Lakers charge the price that they think will maximize their
revenue. The LA Women's team charges what they think will maximize
their revenue. If one of the teams loses money (hey, if the Dodgers
can claim to lose millions so could the Lakers) then that has
absolutely zero effect on the other teams prices as it has no effect
on what ticket price people will pay to see them.
John Northey.
"Professional baseball is on the wane. Salaries must come down
or the interest of the public must be increased in some way.
If one or the other does not happen, bankruptcy stares every
team in the face."
-- Chicago White Stockings owner Albert Spalding, 1881 >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:31 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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[John Northey (northeyremovespamjohn@hotmail.com)]
[Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:35:05 -0400]
:So, if the LA women's team folded tomorrow you think the Lakers
:ownership would drop prices to the Laker games? Suuuure they will.
:The Lakers charge the price that they think will maximize their
:revenue. The LA Women's team charges what they think will maximize
:their revenue. If one of the teams loses money (hey, if the Dodgers
:can claim to lose millions so could the Lakers) then that has
:absolutely zero effect on the other teams prices as it has no effect
 n what ticket price people will pay to see them.
Your understanding of economics is dreadful.
--
Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Since: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 332
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <MPG.19d29f6ac41ea643989985.DeleteThis@news-east.giganews.com>,
Bryan S. Slick <bryan_s.DeleteThis@slick-family.not> wrote:
>[Perry Sailor (perry.sailor@colorado.edu)]
>:I don't see what you're going on about, Slick. I mean, it's a
>:self-regulating kinda thing, isn't it? They'll get paid according to where
>:the market values them. It's not like the WNBA is being subsidized by
>:federal grants or something, so what are you so upset about?
>Actually, the WNBA *is* being subsidized.. by the NBA. The league has
>yet to make a profit. Your Los Angeles Lakers (or whatever) ticket is
>higher (by whatever amount) because of the Los Angeles Sparkz (team
>name?).
Uh, no. It isn't. Once more: prices are set by supply and demand, not by
costs. The Lakers' owners profits are lower because of the Sparkszs; your
ticket prices are unchanged.
---------------------------------------------
David M. Nieporent nieporen.DeleteThis@alumni.princeton.edu >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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Posts: 467
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Get Good Press [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Chris Zabel <alephnull.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
: Well, to be fair, the expectations for the WNBA are incredibly low. For the
: most part journalists continue to give David Stern the benefit of the doubt
: in running the NBA and its associated properties(which include the WNBA).
BTW -- why? I'm sure the NBA is making good money, but I strongly suspect
they're vastly underachieving.
People, in my experience, really *like* basketball; I know it's just
anecdotal, but I've met tons of sports fans who insult baseball, and lots
and lots of people don't like football, but I really don't hear many
people just say they don't like basketball. I know lots of people,
however, who don't follow basketball very much, despite more-or-less
liking it; I know lots of people who are dedicated fans of March Madness
but ignore or mildly follow the NBA.
IMO, the NBA is poorly conceptualized, top to bottom, and the result is
that they're raking in far less money than they should. It's possible
that some of that works out OK for the current ownership -- I don't know.
And while I have ideas, I don't really know what they *should* do. But
basically I strongly suspect that running a long, meaningless schedule is
a terrible mistake. Not that Stern is to blame for it, but still.
JHB >> Stay informed about: How to Get Good Press |
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