Cueto

On Thu, 22 May 2008 13:35:12 -0400, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:

>"JustTom" <tom.RemoveThis@nomail.please> wrote in message
>news:4835a474.528034597@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>I turned the game on the radio at the end of the 2nd inning last
>> night and promptly fell asleep.
>>
>> A peak at the line this morning showed Cueto threw 114 pitches,
>> walked 3 and struck out only two.
>>
>> I saw there were a couple of unearned runs meaning they got some extra
>> chances, but the lack of K's is a red flag to me. 114 thru 5 ain't
>> good either, so the control that got him here seems to be gone, at
>> least last night. I don't want Dusty throwing him that long too
>> often this year either.
>>
>> Anyone think it's time to either move him to the pen or down to
>> L'ville for a breather?
>
>He's got 'head problems' as well. He had runners at 1st & 3rd, two outs,
>and a 1-2 count on the batter. He threw the ball over Votto's head trying
>to pick the guy off first base. Why?
>
>He's a bit volatile. I think he may be over his head.
>

I don't want to ruin him. How's Homer doing in AAA?
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

--

"JustTom" <tom.RemoveThis@nomail.please> wrote in message
news:4835ae9f.530638519@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 13:35:12 -0400, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>
>>"JustTom" <tom.RemoveThis@nomail.please> wrote in message
>>news:4835a474.528034597@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>>I turned the game on the radio at the end of the 2nd inning last
>>> night and promptly fell asleep.
>>>
>>> A peak at the line this morning showed Cueto threw 114 pitches,
>>> walked 3 and struck out only two.
>>>
>>> I saw there were a couple of unearned runs meaning they got some extra
>>> chances, but the lack of K's is a red flag to me. 114 thru 5 ain't
>>> good either, so the control that got him here seems to be gone, at
>>> least last night. I don't want Dusty throwing him that long too
>>> often this year either.
>>>
>>> Anyone think it's time to either move him to the pen or down to
>>> L'ville for a breather?
>>
>>He's got 'head problems' as well. He had runners at 1st & 3rd, two outs,
>>and a 1-2 count on the batter. He threw the ball over Votto's head trying
>>to pick the guy off first base. Why?
>>
>>He's a bit volatile. I think he may be over his head.
>>
>
> I don't want to ruin him. How's Homer doing in AAA?

I don't get a chance to check minor league stuff. The last I heard, he was
hot and cold. Homer is probably reaching the put up or shut up point. Why
in the hell can this organization not draft and develop a good pitcher? I
realize that's a tall order, but you think they would stumble on one
somewhere along the line. We are in perpetual Brett Tomko mode.

I'm in brain lock. When was the last time we gave up on a 'pitching
prospect' and he went somewhere else and performed well? Any come to mind?
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:07:33 -0400, "Bob Braun"
<oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't want to ruin him. How's Homer doing in AAA?
>
>I don't get a chance to check minor league stuff. The last I heard, he was
>hot and cold. Homer is probably reaching the put up or shut up point. Why
>in the hell can this organization not draft and develop a good pitcher? I
>realize that's a tall order, but you think they would stumble on one
>somewhere along the line. We are in perpetual Brett Tomko mode.
>
>I'm in brain lock. When was the last time we gave up on a 'pitching
>prospect' and he went somewhere else and performed well? Any come to mind?
>

Not exactly recent, but the only one that comes to mind is BJ Ryan,
and I don't think we exactly gave up on him.

I can't think of any starters at all.
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

JustTom wrote:
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:07:33 -0400, "Bob Braun"
> <oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't want to ruin him. How's Homer doing in AAA?
>> I don't get a chance to check minor league stuff. The last I heard, he was
>> hot and cold. Homer is probably reaching the put up or shut up point. Why
>> in the hell can this organization not draft and develop a good pitcher? I
>> realize that's a tall order, but you think they would stumble on one
>> somewhere along the line. We are in perpetual Brett Tomko mode.
>>
>> I'm in brain lock. When was the last time we gave up on a 'pitching
>> prospect' and he went somewhere else and performed well? Any come to mind?
>>
>
> Not exactly recent, but the only one that comes to mind is BJ Ryan,
> and I don't think we exactly gave up on him.
>
> I can't think of any starters at all.

Justin Germano fills the bill. Although "well" is relative and the reds
didn't draft him. He was in the system and they pretty much gave him away.

Koronka had a couple decent starts, but Josh Hancock could have done that.

Chris Hammond, Tomko.

Nah. I'm hanging up on that "well" word. The Lizard might qualify. Zac
Ward might magically heal some day.

.....

On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just draftee's.

I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
and has really done well, here or elsewhere.

dfs
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:01:41 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short.DeleteThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:

>JustTom wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:07:33 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>> <oxinfla.DeleteThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't want to ruin him. How's Homer doing in AAA?
>>> I don't get a chance to check minor league stuff. The last I heard, he was
>>> hot and cold. Homer is probably reaching the put up or shut up point. Why
>>> in the hell can this organization not draft and develop a good pitcher? I
>>> realize that's a tall order, but you think they would stumble on one
>>> somewhere along the line. We are in perpetual Brett Tomko mode.
>>>
>>> I'm in brain lock. When was the last time we gave up on a 'pitching
>>> prospect' and he went somewhere else and performed well? Any come to mind?
>>>
>>
>> Not exactly recent, but the only one that comes to mind is BJ Ryan,
>> and I don't think we exactly gave up on him.
>>
>> I can't think of any starters at all.
>
>Justin Germano fills the bill. Although "well" is relative and the reds
>didn't draft him. He was in the system and they pretty much gave him away.

No big loss. He put up a 91 ERA+ last season. Arroyo, Harang and Lohse
were better, Tom Shearn put up a 94, Milton had a 90 in his 6 starts,
Belisle put up an 88., so did Livingston in his 10 games, Bailey had an
81, Dumatrait had a 31). Dropping a 91 in there for 20-some starts (what
he had for the Padres) obviously improves last year's team slightly, but
not too much, asnd part of that depends on which guys he would have been
replacing (replacing Shearna and Livingston's starts is a wa wash, for
example) and then if you consider...

He has a 64 ERA+ so far this season.

Another case where any hand wringing is wasted on him.

>Koronka had a couple decent starts, but Josh Hancock could have done that.
>
>Chris Hammond, Tomko.
>
>Nah. I'm hanging up on that "well" word. The Lizard might qualify. Zac
>Ward might magically heal some day.
>
>....
>
>On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just draftee's.
>
>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.

Trevor Hoffman.

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:01:41 -0400, David Short
<David.no.Short.DeleteThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:

>JustTom wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:07:33 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>> <oxinfla.DeleteThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't want to ruin him. How's Homer doing in AAA?
>>> I don't get a chance to check minor league stuff. The last I heard, he was
>>> hot and cold. Homer is probably reaching the put up or shut up point. Why
>>> in the hell can this organization not draft and develop a good pitcher? I
>>> realize that's a tall order, but you think they would stumble on one
>>> somewhere along the line. We are in perpetual Brett Tomko mode.
>>>
>>> I'm in brain lock. When was the last time we gave up on a 'pitching
>>> prospect' and he went somewhere else and performed well? Any come to mind?
>>>
>>
>> Not exactly recent, but the only one that comes to mind is BJ Ryan,
>> and I don't think we exactly gave up on him.
>>
>> I can't think of any starters at all.
>
>Justin Germano fills the bill. Although "well" is relative and the reds
>didn't draft him. He was in the system and they pretty much gave him away.
>

I was going to use him, but then I took a peak at his numbers from
this year and didn't want y'all to ridicule me.

>....
>
>On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just draftee's.
>
>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.
>

Adam Dunn says hi.

Deno may do all right and fits the requirements if he can find a
little health.

Although he didn't come up thru the system, Paul Konerko has done
alright, and I wish we'd have gave him more than a 26 game peek.

I thought Stenson had the chance to be a good one, but he wasn't a
farm hand either.

So, other than Dunn, I can't think of anyone who has succeeded from
our system as a pitcher or a position guy in a long time.

God, no wonder we've sucked for so long.
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

--

"Kevin McClave" <kmcclave.DeleteThis@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:26jb349lt2ut1qcuv7ee60q6i56kp2q17o@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:01:41 -0400, David Short
> <David.no.Short.DeleteThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
>
>>JustTom wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:07:33 -0400, "Bob Braun"
>>> <oxinfla.DeleteThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I don't want to ruin him. How's Homer doing in AAA?
>>>> I don't get a chance to check minor league stuff. The last I heard, he
>>>> was
>>>> hot and cold. Homer is probably reaching the put up or shut up point.
>>>> Why
>>>> in the hell can this organization not draft and develop a good pitcher?
>>>> I
>>>> realize that's a tall order, but you think they would stumble on one
>>>> somewhere along the line. We are in perpetual Brett Tomko mode.
>>>>
>>>> I'm in brain lock. When was the last time we gave up on a 'pitching
>>>> prospect' and he went somewhere else and performed well? Any come to
>>>> mind?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not exactly recent, but the only one that comes to mind is BJ Ryan,
>>> and I don't think we exactly gave up on him.
>>>
>>> I can't think of any starters at all.
>>
>>Justin Germano fills the bill. Although "well" is relative and the reds
>>didn't draft him. He was in the system and they pretty much gave him away.
>
> No big loss. He put up a 91 ERA+ last season. Arroyo, Harang and Lohse
> were better, Tom Shearn put up a 94, Milton had a 90 in his 6 starts,
> Belisle put up an 88., so did Livingston in his 10 games, Bailey had an
> 81, Dumatrait had a 31). Dropping a 91 in there for 20-some starts (what
> he had for the Padres) obviously improves last year's team slightly, but
> not too much, asnd part of that depends on which guys he would have been
> replacing (replacing Shearna and Livingston's starts is a wa wash, for
> example) and then if you consider...
>
> He has a 64 ERA+ so far this season.
>
> Another case where any hand wringing is wasted on him.
>
>>Koronka had a couple decent starts, but Josh Hancock could have done that.
>>
>>Chris Hammond, Tomko.
>>
>>Nah. I'm hanging up on that "well" word. The Lizard might qualify. Zac
>>Ward might magically heal some day.
>>
>>....
>>
>>On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just draftee's.
>>
>>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
>>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.
>
> Trevor Hoffman.

He definitely fits! That was what, early 90's?
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 16:03:24 -0400, Kevin McClave
<kmcclave DeleteThis @SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
>>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.
>
>Trevor Hoffman.

That's the winner.
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

In article <BuqdnWkj0__HSKjVnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d.RemoveThis@comcast.com>,
"Bob Braun" <oxinfla.RemoveThis@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:

> --
>
> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclave.RemoveThis@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:26jb349lt2ut1qcuv7ee60q6i56kp2q17o@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:01:41 -0400, David Short
> > <David.no.Short.RemoveThis@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just draftee's.
> >>
> >>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
> >>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.
> >
> > Trevor Hoffman.
>
> He definitely fits! That was what, early 90's?

It was 1992. Hoffman was left unprotected and taken by Florida in the
1992 expansion draft. He was traded by Florida to the Padres when the
Padres had the fire sale and was traded with others for Gary Sheffield.

If you want to consider a pitcher the Reds traded out of their farm
system that did well, I'd argue Jeff Montgomery who was traded for the
immortal Van Slider.

Here's that expansion draft:
<http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Expansion_of_1993>

I couldn't find the list showing players that were protected and which
players were protected after others were taken.
--
Remove blown from email address to reply.
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

"JustTom" <tom DeleteThis @nomail.please> wrote in message
news:4835a474.528034597@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>I turned the game on the radio at the end of the 2nd inning last
> night and promptly fell asleep.
>
> A peak at the line this morning showed Cueto threw 114 pitches,
> walked 3 and struck out only two.
>
> I saw there were a couple of unearned runs meaning they got some extra
> chances, but the lack of K's is a red flag to me. 114 thru 5 ain't
> good either, so the control that got him here seems to be gone, at
> least last night. I don't want Dusty throwing him that long too
> often this year either.
>
> Anyone think it's time to either move him to the pen or down to
> L'ville for a breather?

No. The alternatives are about the same or worse and he's gonna have to
take his lumps like the others before he turns great, if that's possible.
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

"Thomas R. Kettler" <tkettler.TakeThisOut@blownfuse.net> wrote in message
news:tkettler-EFE880.18402922052008@news.fuse.net...
> In article <BuqdnWkj0__HSKjVnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>,
> "Bob Braun" <oxinfla.TakeThisOut@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>
>> --
>>
>> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclave.TakeThisOut@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:26jb349lt2ut1qcuv7ee60q6i56kp2q17o@4ax.com...
>> > On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:01:41 -0400, David Short
>> > <David.no.Short.TakeThisOut@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just draftee's.
>> >>
>> >>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
>> >>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.
>> >
>> > Trevor Hoffman.
>>
>> He definitely fits! That was what, early 90's?
>
> It was 1992. Hoffman was left unprotected and taken by Florida in the
> 1992 expansion draft. He was traded by Florida to the Padres when the
> Padres had the fire sale and was traded with others for Gary Sheffield.
>
> If you want to consider a pitcher the Reds traded out of their farm
> system that did well, I'd argue Jeff Montgomery who was traded for the
> immortal Van Slider.
>
> Here's that expansion draft:
> <http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Expansion_of_1993>
>
> I couldn't find the list showing players that were protected and which
> players were protected after others were taken.

Germano DFA by Padres today.
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

In article <48361ebf$0$7719$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
rja.TakeThisOut@nospam.cinci.rr.com says...
> "Thomas R. Kettler" <tkettler.TakeThisOut@blownfuse.net> wrote in message
> news:tkettler-EFE880.18402922052008@news.fuse.net...
> > In article <BuqdnWkj0__HSKjVnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>,
> > "Bob Braun" <oxinfla.TakeThisOut@hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> --
> >>
> >> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclave.TakeThisOut@SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> >> news:26jb349lt2ut1qcuv7ee60q6i56kp2q17o@4ax.com...
> >> > On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:01:41 -0400, David Short
> >> > <David.no.Short.TakeThisOut@Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just draftee's.
> >> >>
> >> >>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm system
> >> >>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.
> >> >
> >> > Trevor Hoffman.
> >>
> >> He definitely fits! That was what, early 90's?
> >
> > It was 1992. Hoffman was left unprotected and taken by Florida in the
> > 1992 expansion draft. He was traded by Florida to the Padres when the
> > Padres had the fire sale and was traded with others for Gary Sheffield.
> >
> > If you want to consider a pitcher the Reds traded out of their farm
> > system that did well, I'd argue Jeff Montgomery who was traded for the
> > immortal Van Slider.
> >
> > Here's that expansion draft:
> > <http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Expansion_of_1993>
> >
> > I couldn't find the list showing players that were protected and which
> > players were protected after others were taken.
>
> Germano DFA by Padres today.

I had the expansion protection lists in an old Baseball Weekly in my
files, but I can't find them at the moment.

Though I do remember the awesomest move ever, the Royals protecting
*David Howard* in the expansion draft.

The Reds did draft a few good relievers in recent years. B.J. Ryan is
an excellent pitcher when healthy and so was Scott Williamson before
injuries ruined his career. Burger King had a lot of solid seasons as
did Scott Sullivan. Horrific for starters though, Tomko is by far the
best starter the Reds developed since Browning, though Jeremy Sowers is
still young enough to turn around and be better than Tomko.

(Interesting note: Unless I missed someone, until Paul Janish got
called up, not a single player the Reds drafted since 2003 had played in
the majors).

--
Dan Szymborski
dan.TakeThisOut@baseballprimer.REMOVE.com

"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is
not a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."
- Robert Schumann
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto 

"Dan Szymborski" <dan DeleteThis @baseballprimer.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.22a279c535936d2198972a@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> In article <48361ebf$0$7719$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> rja DeleteThis @nospam.cinci.rr.com says...
>> "Thomas R. Kettler" <tkettler DeleteThis @blownfuse.net> wrote in message
>> news:tkettler-EFE880.18402922052008@news.fuse.net...
>> > In article <BuqdnWkj0__HSKjVnZ2dnUVZ_gednZ2d DeleteThis @comcast.com>,
>> > "Bob Braun" <oxinfla DeleteThis @hotandsunnymail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> "Kevin McClave" <kmcclave DeleteThis @SPAM666twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:26jb349lt2ut1qcuv7ee60q6i56kp2q17o@4ax.com...
>> >> > On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:01:41 -0400, David Short
>> >> > <David.no.Short DeleteThis @Spam.Wright.Please.edu> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>On the other hand, it's not just pitchers. And it's not just
>> >> >>draftee's.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I'm hard pressed to name ANYBODY that came out of the reds farm
>> >> >>system
>> >> >>and has really done well, here or elsewhere.
>> >> >
>> >> > Trevor Hoffman.
>> >>
>> >> He definitely fits! That was what, early 90's?
>> >
>> > It was 1992. Hoffman was left unprotected and taken by Florida in the
>> > 1992 expansion draft. He was traded by Florida to the Padres when the
>> > Padres had the fire sale and was traded with others for Gary Sheffield.
>> >
>> > If you want to consider a pitcher the Reds traded out of their farm
>> > system that did well, I'd argue Jeff Montgomery who was traded for the
>> > immortal Van Slider.
>> >
>> > Here's that expansion draft:
>> > <http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Expansion_of_1993>
>> >
>> > I couldn't find the list showing players that were protected and which
>> > players were protected after others were taken.
>>
>> Germano DFA by Padres today.
>
> I had the expansion protection lists in an old Baseball Weekly in my
> files, but I can't find them at the moment.
>
> Though I do remember the awesomest move ever, the Royals protecting
> *David Howard* in the expansion draft.
>
> The Reds did draft a few good relievers in recent years. B.J. Ryan is
> an excellent pitcher when healthy and so was Scott Williamson before
> injuries ruined his career. Burger King had a lot of solid seasons as
> did Scott Sullivan. Horrific for starters though, Tomko is by far the
> best starter the Reds developed since Browning, though Jeremy Sowers is
> still young enough to turn around and be better than Tomko.
>
> (Interesting note: Unless I missed someone, until Paul Janish got
> called up, not a single player the Reds drafted since 2003 had played in
> the majors).

Homer Bailey.
 >> Stay informed about: Cueto