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Mr. Brian Allen

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Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 242



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:16 pm
Post subject: Cubs/Pirates are at it again
Archived from groups: alt>sports>baseball>pitt-pirates (more info?)

Yeah, that bum 3rd baseman Ramirez just hit a grand slam. Gosh, I'm glad we
got rid of him for nothing. Isn't it funny how ex-Pirates step up their
games from the minute they leave the team? It must be a coincidence. It
couldn't be the shitty management or coaching staff. Nah. Lofton, Ramirez,
Simon, Schmidt, Loiza, Guillen. The list goes on and on. Benson and
Kendall will be on it soon.

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Mcmyers

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Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:02 am
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Since when did you like start liking Lofton and Simon ???? and if we got
nothing in return it was worth it because according to you maybe the young kids
will get some bats. Remember Littlefield is your man,and what goes around comes
around. How about those Reds.

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Mr. Brian Allen

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Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 242



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:02 am
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> Since when did you like start liking Lofton and Simon ???? and if we got
> nothing in return it was worth it because according to you maybe the young
kids
> will get some bats.

We had to get nothing in return in order to get the young players at-bats?
There's no connection there. And Ramirez was one of the young players!

> Remember Littlefield is your man,and what goes around comes
> around. How about those Reds.

Do you still think that Ramirez is a worthless bum third baseman? He sure
is playing good for the Cubs. Pure coincidence, I'm sure.
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Geo H.

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Since: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 5



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:00 am
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"Mr. Brian Allen" <blah.TakeThisOut@blah.com> wrote in message
news:voh79pi8378e00@corp.supernews.com...
> Yeah, that bum 3rd baseman Ramirez just hit a grand slam. Gosh, I'm glad
we
> got rid of him for nothing. Isn't it funny how ex-Pirates step up their
> games from the minute they leave the team? It must be a coincidence. It
> couldn't be the shitty management or coaching staff. Nah. Lofton,
Ramirez,
> Simon, Schmidt, Loiza, Guillen. The list goes on and on. Benson and
> Kendall will be on it soon.



Do you realy believe that Guillen stepped up his game the minute he left
the Pirates? How about Loiza? I'm sure you know that that is simply not
true.
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Mr. Brian Allen

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Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 242



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:46 pm
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> Guillen stunk at first. Even Tampa Bay got rid of him. Loiaza the same
way.
> Texas dumped him after us and thier pitching staff is always horrible.

Look at the two teams mentioned here. Tampa Bay and Texas. Nothing else
needs to be said. They can't evaluate talent any better than the Pirates.

> Schmidt wasn't gonna get the money SF gave him and he was always on the DL
> here.

Right, but he was also repeatedly slammed by the media and given the same
sour grapes treatment that Benson is being given now.

>In fact he's back on it now with a blown arm.

And he'll be healthy by next season and ready to win another 15 games. I'd
take it.

>Simon was no different
> here then he is with a cubbies now.

And he was given away for nothing.

>The only trade that disgusts me is
> Ramirez.

We'll be bitching about this trade 10 years from now. It's one of the worst
in recent memory. Ramirez is a future multiple all-star.
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Geo H.

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Since: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 5



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:46 pm
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"Mr. Brian Allen" <blah.TakeThisOut@blah.com> wrote in message
news:voj1b29b0ho156@corp.supernews.com...
> >

>
>
..> > Schmidt wasn't gonna get the money SF gave him and he was always on the
DL
> > here.
>
> Right, but he was also repeatedly slammed by the media and given the same
> sour grapes treatment that Benson is being given now.
>
> >In fact he's back on it now with a blown arm.
>
> And he'll be healthy by next season and ready to win another 15 games.
I'd
> take it




While he was in Pittsburgh, Schmidt did nothing. He was an overweight slob,
who made no attempt to get in shape until his walk year. Any slamming he
recieved was deserved.
..
>
..
>
>

>
>
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Alan & Erin Williams

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Since: Jul 29, 2003
Posts: 77



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Cubs/Pirates are at it again [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Geo H." wrote:
>
> "Mr. Brian Allen" <blah.TakeThisOut@blah.com> wrote in message
> news:voh79pi8378e00@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yeah, that bum 3rd baseman Ramirez just hit a grand slam. Gosh, I'm glad
> we
> > got rid of him for nothing. Isn't it funny how ex-Pirates step up their
> > games from the minute they leave the team? It must be a coincidence. It
> > couldn't be the shitty management or coaching staff. Nah. Lofton,
> Ramirez,
> > Simon, Schmidt, Loiza, Guillen. The list goes on and on. Benson and
> > Kendall will be on it soon.
>
> Do you realy believe that Guillen stepped up his game the minute he left
> the Pirates? How about Loiza? I'm sure you know that that is simply not
> true.

Loiza was the one that really surprised me. He struggled for a number
of seasons after leaving Pittsburgh with the same issues that plagued
him here. Guillen's strengths and weaknesses are unchanged. He can
hit, he has speed, he has a cannon of an arm. He isn't too bright and
still runs the bases badly.

Alan
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graphicsports

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Since: Oct 13, 2003
Posts: 9



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:10 am
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Actually, I was listening to one of the games this off-season, and it might
have been Dusty Baker who said that they detected a problem with Ramirez's
footwork at third base, and were confident that the Cubs' coaching staff
could straighten him out.

If the Cubs win the World Series, this trade will secure its rightful place
in history as being one of the worst of all time.


"Geo H." <ghami.TakeThisOut@usaor.net> wrote in message
news:voir4gslro0be1@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Mr. Brian Allen" <blah.TakeThisOut@blah.com> wrote in message
> news:voh79pi8378e00@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yeah, that bum 3rd baseman Ramirez just hit a grand slam. Gosh, I'm
glad
> we
> > got rid of him for nothing. Isn't it funny how ex-Pirates step up their
> > games from the minute they leave the team? It must be a coincidence.
It
> > couldn't be the shitty management or coaching staff. Nah. Lofton,
> Ramirez,
> > Simon, Schmidt, Loiza, Guillen. The list goes on and on. Benson and
> > Kendall will be on it soon.
>
>
>
> Do you realy believe that Guillen stepped up his game the minute he left
> the Pirates? How about Loiza? I'm sure you know that that is simply not
> true.
>
>
>
>
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Mr. Brian Allen

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Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 242



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:10 am
Post subject: Re: Cubs/Pirates are at it again [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> Actually, I was listening to one of the games this off-season, and it
might
> have been Dusty Baker who said that they detected a problem with Ramirez's
> footwork at third base, and were confident that the Cubs' coaching staff
> could straighten him out.

Yeah, imagine a Pirates coach fixing a footwork problem. Pffft...

> If the Cubs win the World Series, this trade will secure its rightful
place
> in history as being one of the worst of all time.

In 10 years, we'll remember this trade as being our version of the Bagwell
trade.
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Alan & Erin Williams

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Since: Jul 29, 2003
Posts: 77



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:48 am
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"Mr. Brian Allen" wrote:
>
> > Actually, I was listening to one of the games this off-season, and it
> might
> > have been Dusty Baker who said that they detected a problem with Ramirez's
> > footwork at third base, and were confident that the Cubs' coaching staff
> > could straighten him out.
>
> Yeah, imagine a Pirates coach fixing a footwork problem. Pffft...
>
> > If the Cubs win the World Series, this trade will secure its rightful
> place
> > in history as being one of the worst of all time.
>
> In 10 years, we'll remember this trade as being our version of the Bagwell
> trade.

Brian, you've been very consistent over the years about the
potential/value of Aramis.

I just think, that in the interest of balance, it should be noted that
AR was not a hot commodity back in June. I remember a list of
'available' 3B's with good bats being discussed, in relation to the
Dodgers. All the buzz was about Mike Lowell. One commentator said that
past Lowell "there is really no one worth going after".

I remember this because *at the time* I thought that was unfair to Aram.


I remember this, because I expected more vigorous competition to get
Aram by the Dodgers and Yankees when it became clear that the Pirates
wanted to chop his $6,000,000 from the 2004 payroll. Instead, the Yanks
got Boone and the Dodgers did nothing.

Alan
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Kevin

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Since: Aug 16, 2003
Posts: 41



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:55 am
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<< Instead, the Yanks
got Boone and the Dodgers did nothing.
>>


And the Pirates got screwed
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M. S. Burton

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Since: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 115



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:38 am
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From: Alan & Erin Williams (williams5@mindspring.com)
> Instead, the Yanks got Boone and the Dodgers did nothing.

They got Ventura from the Yankees.

We noticed all this up in the NW corner of the world, as according to most
sources, the only reason the Yankees got Boone was because the Mariners
were trying to get him, and were willing to help Boston out with a 3-way
deal to do so.

It's a day-to-day existence for new-look Yankees
By Bob Klapisch
Special to ESPN.com

Aaron Boone's new life as a Yankee began last Thursday with a
old-fashioned conference call, which was no surprise considering the
team was on the West Coast and Boone was en route to meet them. No
overflow press gathering, no luncheon at "21" and no face-to-face with
owner George Steinbrenner, who was in Tampa making sure every one of
his lieutenants was on the phone gushing over the trade.

Incredibly, there were nine officials on the line, including GM Brian
Cashman and president Randy Levine. The Yankees were obviously
advertising their unity in acquiring Boone, but to bludgeon the point,
Levine began the call by describing just how "together" they were in
the decision to surrender rookie lefty Brandon Claussen.

Levine invoked that very word --"together" -- nine times in the first
five minutes. Count 'em. Nine. Once for each executive on the line.

Steinbrenner was missing, of course, but it was he who generated the
panic --or at the very least, the heightened awareness -- of the Red
Sox that led to the Yankees' 11th-hour frenzy. It all began with the
Yankees losing 2-of-3 to the Sox at Fenway a week and a half ago,
compelling the Bombers to rethink Claussen's status as an untouchable.

Until that point, the Yankees were busy projecting him as a fixture in
the 2004 rotation, given Roger Clemens' impending retirement, free
agency for both Andy Pettitte and David Wells and a mysterious
shoulder injury which has kept Jose Contreras on the disabled list for
nearly two months.

Claussen was young and cheap and blessed with impressive stuff, still
intact after recovering from Tommy John surgery. The Yankees trusted
him enough to start him against the Mets on June 28, when he allowed
just one earned run in 6.1 innings. To any club who inquired about
Claussen -- like the Reds, who'd wanted him and Nick Johnson and $2.5
million for closer Scott Williamson -- the Yankees said: No chance.

But as July was ready to yield to August, the Yankees suddenly felt
the Red Sox breathing hotly on their necks, just 1=BD games out after
the Fenway series. Boston GM Theo Epstein had already won the
tug-of-war for lefty set-up man Scott Sauerbeck, forcing the Yankees
to settle for Jesse Orosco. And Epstein would soon snare Williamson,
too.

So when the Yankees heard that Epstein was about to strike again --
this time, he'd targeted Boone and was prepared to send him to the
Mariners for Freddy Garcia -- the Yankees rearranged every previous
priority, including finding a new right fielder to replace Raul
Mondesi.

The Yankees were leaning toward Pittsburgh's Brian Giles, and there
was talk of a push for Montreal's Vladimir Guerrero, even Texas' Juan
Gonzalez despite the fact he'd vetoed a trade to New York three years
ago and would almost certainly do so again. What the Yankees weren't
chasing, at least not until the final 24 hours before the deadline,
was another third baseman. At least not until an internal decision was
made to keep Boone away from the Sox, and to do whatever it took to
achieve that goal -- including trading Claussen.

Of course, no one doubted Cashman when he expressed regret over losing
Claussen -- "we still believe he's going to have a fine career," the
GM said -- but he insisted the timing of the deal had nothing to do
with the Red Sox's surge and everything to do with the collapse of the
Reds' regime, which made Boone available.

Instead, Cashman said, "this was too good of an opportunity to pass
up." True or not, the Yankees accomplished the immediate goal of
upgrading at third base, even though Boone's arrival all but ends the
Drew Henson experiment. Going into the weekend, the former Michigan
quarterback was hitting .228 with 12 homers and 56 RBI at Triple-A
Columbus along with 21 errors.

"This deal speaks volumes about where we are with Henson," is how
Cashman bluntly put it. Meaning, Henson could either consider
switching to the outfield, or else return the prorated portion of his
$17 million signing bonus and get on with a career in the NFL.

As for Boone, he struggled in his debut in pinstripes, going 2-for-11
as the Yankees were losing 2-of-3 to the A's over the weekend. Still,
he gives the Yankees a younger, quicker version of Robin Ventura and
allows manager Joe Torre flexibility to navigate around several
in-house droughts.

Even after going 2-for-3 on Sunday, Alfonso Soriano is still only
batting .206 since the All-Star break and has been moved down to the
No. 7 spot in the batting order. His leadoff spot has been assumed by
Derek Jeter, who's currently batting .323 with a .394 on-base
percentage. Jeter's No. 2 spot is, for now, occupied by Bernie
Williams, while Boone is hitting sixth.

Right field will continue to be a "patchwork" equation, according to
Cashman, although newly-acquired David Dellucci's defense alone should
earn him most of the at-bats, particularly ahead of the ungraceful
Ruben Sierra. Still, don't discount the possibility of the Yankees
making one more, high-profile trade for an outfielder before
September 1.

If the Boone-for-Claussen swap has taught us anything, it's that the
Yankees' horizons extend no further than the next 24 hours. Losing
Claussen hurts, but to dress the wound, the Bombers intend to fall
back on an old Steinbrenner remedy:

Write someone a bigger check next year.
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Alan & Erin Williams

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Since: Jul 29, 2003
Posts: 77



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:27 pm
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Kevin wrote:
>
> << Instead, the Yanks
> got Boone and the Dodgers did nothing.
> >>
>
> And the Pirates got screwed

They certainly did not get 'fair value' and that was disappointing
considering that KC was courting the Rangers for Juan G's bat, and could
have added Aram in Randa's place...or that the money-rich hitting-poor
Dodgers didn't want him...or that the Yankees who can afford to carry
four right-fielders opted for the disaffected Boone rather than Aramis...

Word has been that Aram didnt rehab hard from injuries and was showing
'no desire to win', in fact Gammons repeated a Littlefield feed
practically verbatim before the trading deadline that 'Ramirez doesn't
even try'. He sure looks motivated now! and his batting stance (the
knee flexing, esp.) is looking more like Sosa every day.

Alan
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Mr. Brian Allen

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Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 242



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:27 pm
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> Word has been that Aram didnt rehab hard from injuries and was showing
> 'no desire to win', in fact Gammons repeated a Littlefield feed
> practically verbatim before the trading deadline that 'Ramirez doesn't
> even try'.

Gee, I can't imagine how 11 straight losing seasons would sour the young
players. If we sit in here and bitch about it day after day, imagine how
the players actually involved in it feel. They can't turn the game off like
we can.
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Alan & Erin Williams

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Since: Jul 29, 2003
Posts: 77



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:41 pm
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"Mr. Brian Allen" wrote:
>
> > Word has been that Aram didnt rehab hard from injuries and was showing
> > 'no desire to win', in fact Gammons repeated a Littlefield feed
> > practically verbatim before the trading deadline that 'Ramirez doesn't
> > even try'.
>
> Gee, I can't imagine how 11 straight losing seasons would sour the young
> players. If we sit in here and bitch about it day after day, imagine how
> the players actually involved in it feel. They can't turn the game off like
> we can.

If you can't manage to pony up your best effort for $6,000,000 a year,
$500,000 a month, $10,000 per at-bat...I think it's reasonable to call
that a character defect. ;-/

But I'm sure you're right, its a grind. There are a lot of pitfalls in
being 25 years old and having more money than some Latin American cities
while constantly traveling. Look at the NBA! Rape, murder, drugs, there
are a lot of bad decisions a kid could make.

I cannot know the truth of Gammons comment, but if it was a widely held
opiniion it would certainly depress the player's market value. I heard
the same grumbles about Lofton a few years ago and thought they were
bull. I think its obvious now that they were!

Alan
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