This Bench Is a Mystery to Me

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric RemoveThis @local.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream babbled:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric RemoveThis @local.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
>>>with the game tied. Sweet.
>>
>>
>> Who do you suggest?
>>
>> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that there
>> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
>
>You would think that Snyder was also available.

Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
would believe he wasn't.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"Gary" <golferace2.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:j9d193pda5naq2h9qe628r40drd6afkkvq@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric.TakeThisOut@local.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream babbled:
> >
> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric.TakeThisOut@local.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
> >>>with the game tied. Sweet.
> >>
> >>
> >> Who do you suggest?
> >>
> >> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that there
> >> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
> >
> >You would think that Snyder was also available.
>
> Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
> would believe he wasn't.

Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been used in
that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels beat the
Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez for two.
This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of trying to
sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them. None
led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the winning
run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get a bunt
down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit a sharp
ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL) dove and
made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing up. He
picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy Howie
Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were retired
without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely would not
have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was willing to
pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year that
Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2 innings.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

Mr Beisbol says " if anything he (Pap) should have been in earlier"
Explain please. The pitchers in innings 9,10,11, and 12 gave up no runs.
So if Pap came in and say pitched two earlier innings and gave up no
runs the score would have remained the same going into the 13th. Granted
under that best case scenario he would not have been the loser but
somebody would have had to pitched the 13th.

Now about the Yanks vs Angels you bitched about Molina trying to bunt to
advance Kendrick in the 13th. When he failed he was allowed to swing
away which resulted in an error by Cairo that " the speedy Howie
Kendrick easily scored all the way from first." WRONG Kendrick opened
the inning with a double and Molina was attempting to move him to third
which was a justifiable bunt situation.

"Sweet Lou"
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"gnork" <gnork44 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gy7ki.5931$zA4.174@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Gary" <golferace2 DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:j9d193pda5naq2h9qe628r40drd6afkkvq@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric DeleteThis @local.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream babbled:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric DeleteThis @local.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
>> >>>with the game tied. Sweet.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Who do you suggest?
>> >>
>> >> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that there
>> >> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
>> >
>> >You would think that Snyder was also available.
>>
>> Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
>> would believe he wasn't.
>
> Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
> something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been used in
> that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels beat the
> Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez for
> two.
> This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of trying to
> sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them. None
> led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the winning
> run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get a
> bunt
> down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit a
> sharp
> ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL) dove
> and
> made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing up. He
> picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy Howie
> Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were retired
> without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely would not
> have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was willing
> to
> pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year that
> Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2 innings.
>
>

Gnork, it's pretty standard practice to NOT use your closer in an extra
innings
road game until you've gained a lead and have a chance to win the game or
you've just about used up every one else in the bullpen.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:f6r1he$30db$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> "gnork" <gnork44.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:gy7ki.5931$zA4.174@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Gary" <golferace2.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:j9d193pda5naq2h9qe628r40drd6afkkvq@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric.RemoveThis@local.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream babbled:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric.RemoveThis@local.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
> >> >>>with the game tied. Sweet.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Who do you suggest?
> >> >>
> >> >> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that there
> >> >> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
> >> >
> >> >You would think that Snyder was also available.
> >>
> >> Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
> >> would believe he wasn't.
> >
> > Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
> > something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been used in
> > that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels beat
the
> > Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez for
> > two.
> > This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of trying
to
> > sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them.
None
> > led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the
winning
> > run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get a
> > bunt
> > down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit a
> > sharp
> > ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL) dove
> > and
> > made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing up.
He
> > picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy Howie
> > Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were
retired
> > without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely would
not
> > have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was
willing
> > to
> > pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year
that
> > Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2
innings.
> >
> >
>
> Gnork, it's pretty standard practice to NOT use your closer in an extra
> innings
> road game until you've gained a lead and have a chance to win the game or
> you've just about used up every one else in the bullpen.

If true, standard=stupid. You want your best relief pitcher in the tightest
spots. The Angels didn't do that and they won.

Also concerning the wretched sac bunt and at least yesterday, the equally
wretched Terry Francona, remember what he did? First he takes out the .320
hitting Pedroia to use the .190 hitting Lugo as a PR. That is so stupid and
he was now done it 3 or 4 times. So when as usual they fail to score Lugo
enters the game. Then in the top of the 12th off the immortal Zach Minor,
Cora leads off with a single. Now Crisp is up. He has 2 hits in the game AND
for about a month now, he has been hitting well over .300. So what does
meester SfB do? He has Crisp sac bunt so Lugo can bat with the RISP at the
cost of an out. Momentum goes away and the inning ends in scoreless
futility.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"gnork" <gnork44.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:D_7ki.5939$zA4.115@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
> news:f6r1he$30db$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>
>> "gnork" <gnork44.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:gy7ki.5931$zA4.174@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > "Gary" <golferace2.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> > news:j9d193pda5naq2h9qe628r40drd6afkkvq@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric.RemoveThis@local.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream
>> >> >babbled:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric.RemoveThis@local.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
>> >> >>>with the game tied. Sweet.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Who do you suggest?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that
>> >> >> there
>> >> >> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
>> >> >
>> >> >You would think that Snyder was also available.
>> >>
>> >> Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
>> >> would believe he wasn't.
>> >
>> > Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
>> > something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been used
>> > in
>> > that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels beat
> the
>> > Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez for
>> > two.
>> > This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of trying
> to
>> > sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them.
> None
>> > led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the
> winning
>> > run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get a
>> > bunt
>> > down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit a
>> > sharp
>> > ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL)
>> > dove
>> > and
>> > made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing up.
> He
>> > picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy
>> > Howie
>> > Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were
> retired
>> > without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely would
> not
>> > have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was
> willing
>> > to
>> > pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year
> that
>> > Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2
> innings.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Gnork, it's pretty standard practice to NOT use your closer in an extra
>> innings
>> road game until you've gained a lead and have a chance to win the game or
>> you've just about used up every one else in the bullpen.
>
> If true, standard=stupid. You want your best relief pitcher in the
> tightest
> spots. The Angels didn't do that and they won.
>
> Also concerning the wretched sac bunt and at least yesterday, the equally
> wretched Terry Francona, remember what he did? First he takes out the .320
> hitting Pedroia to use the .190 hitting Lugo as a PR. That is so stupid
> and
> he was now done it 3 or 4 times. So when as usual they fail to score Lugo
> enters the game. Then in the top of the 12th off the immortal Zach Minor,
> Cora leads off with a single. Now Crisp is up. He has 2 hits in the game
> AND
> for about a month now, he has been hitting well over .300. So what does
> meester SfB do? He has Crisp sac bunt so Lugo can bat with the RISP at the
> cost of an out. Momentum goes away and the inning ends in scoreless
> futility.
>
>

I can't argue with you on those moves. I sure hope he would like those
moves back. Not a good night for Tito that's for sure.

On the other hand...if Manny does his freaking job...at all...they win that
game and it isn't even an issue. Blame him more than Tito.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"gnork" <gnork44 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:D_7ki.5939$zA4.115@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Fred Burton" <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
> news:f6r1he$30db$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>
>> "gnork" <gnork44 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:gy7ki.5931$zA4.174@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > "Gary" <golferace2 DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
>> > news:j9d193pda5naq2h9qe628r40drd6afkkvq@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric DeleteThis @local.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream
>> >> >babbled:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric DeleteThis @local.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
>> >> >>>with the game tied. Sweet.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Who do you suggest?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that
>> >> >> there
>> >> >> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
>> >> >
>> >> >You would think that Snyder was also available.
>> >>
>> >> Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
>> >> would believe he wasn't.
>> >
>> > Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
>> > something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been used
>> > in
>> > that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels beat
> the
>> > Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez for
>> > two.
>> > This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of trying
> to
>> > sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them.
> None
>> > led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the
> winning
>> > run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get a
>> > bunt
>> > down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit a
>> > sharp
>> > ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL)
>> > dove
>> > and
>> > made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing up.
> He
>> > picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy
>> > Howie
>> > Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were
> retired
>> > without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely would
> not
>> > have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was
> willing
>> > to
>> > pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year
> that
>> > Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2
> innings.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Gnork, it's pretty standard practice to NOT use your closer in an extra
>> innings
>> road game until you've gained a lead and have a chance to win the game or
>> you've just about used up every one else in the bullpen.
>
> If true, standard=stupid. You want your best relief pitcher in the
> tightest
> spots. The Angels didn't do that and they won.

No, Gnork == Stupid.


>
> Also concerning the wretched sac bunt and at least yesterday, the equally
> wretched Terry Francona, remember what he did? First he takes out the .320
> hitting Pedroia to use the .190 hitting Lugo as a PR. That is so stupid
> and
> he was now done it 3 or 4 times. So when as usual they fail to score Lugo
> enters the game. Then in the top of the 12th off the immortal Zach Minor,
> Cora leads off with a single. Now Crisp is up. He has 2 hits in the game
> AND
> for about a month now, he has been hitting well over .300. So what does
> meester SfB do? He has Crisp sac bunt so Lugo can bat with the RISP at the
> cost of an out. Momentum goes away and the inning ends in scoreless
> futility.
>
>

I don't blame the sac bunt in the situation you describe. I blame a poorly
timed USE of the sac bunt. Sac bunting with one of your hottest hitters
to move someone to 2B for one of your coldest hitters is a VERY POOR
use of the sac bunt tactic and doesn't make the sac bunt in general a bad
thing.

I'd have suggested something more like a hit and run in that situation. And
if
successful, consider ... *consider* a squeeze bunt with Lugo.


I agree that pinch running for a good hitter with a faster, but weaker
hitter
is a very iffy decision. It's why Francona hasn't PR for Manny or Ortiz
hardly ever since becoming the manager. It might ... MIGHT be a justifiable
decision in certain circumstances, but I tend to think that the decision
fails
more often than it succeeds.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"Fred Burton" <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:f6r318$30qp$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> "gnork" <gnork44 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:D_7ki.5939$zA4.115@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Fred Burton" <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
> > news:f6r1he$30db$1@pyrite.mv.net...
> >>
> >> "gnork" <gnork44 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >> news:gy7ki.5931$zA4.174@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> >
> >> > "Gary" <golferace2 DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:j9d193pda5naq2h9qe628r40drd6afkkvq@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric DeleteThis @local.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream
> >> >> >babbled:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric DeleteThis @local.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
> >> >> >>>with the game tied. Sweet.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Who do you suggest?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that
> >> >> >> there
> >> >> >> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You would think that Snyder was also available.
> >> >>
> >> >> Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
> >> >> would believe he wasn't.
> >> >
> >> > Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
> >> > something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been used
> >> > in
> >> > that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels
beat
> > the
> >> > Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez
for
> >> > two.
> >> > This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of
trying
> > to
> >> > sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them.
> > None
> >> > led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the
> > winning
> >> > run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get
a
> >> > bunt
> >> > down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit a
> >> > sharp
> >> > ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL)
> >> > dove
> >> > and
> >> > made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing
up.
> > He
> >> > picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy
> >> > Howie
> >> > Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were
> > retired
> >> > without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely would
> > not
> >> > have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was
> > willing
> >> > to
> >> > pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year
> > that
> >> > Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2
> > innings.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Gnork, it's pretty standard practice to NOT use your closer in an extra
> >> innings
> >> road game until you've gained a lead and have a chance to win the game
or
> >> you've just about used up every one else in the bullpen.
> >
> > If true, standard=stupid. You want your best relief pitcher in the
> > tightest
> > spots. The Angels didn't do that and they won.
>
> No, Gnork == Stupid.

Why do you say that in the context of this discussion in which we are mostly
in agreement? Maybe we are both stupid?
>
>
> >
> > Also concerning the wretched sac bunt and at least yesterday, the
equally
> > wretched Terry Francona, remember what he did? First he takes out the
..320
> > hitting Pedroia to use the .190 hitting Lugo as a PR. That is so stupid
> > and
> > he was now done it 3 or 4 times. So when as usual they fail to score
Lugo
> > enters the game. Then in the top of the 12th off the immortal Zach
Minor,
> > Cora leads off with a single. Now Crisp is up. He has 2 hits in the game
> > AND
> > for about a month now, he has been hitting well over .300. So what does
> > meester SfB do? He has Crisp sac bunt so Lugo can bat with the RISP at
the
> > cost of an out. Momentum goes away and the inning ends in scoreless
> > futility.
> >
> >
>
> I don't blame the sac bunt in the situation you describe. I blame a
poorly
> timed USE of the sac bunt. Sac bunting with one of your hottest hitters
> to move someone to 2B for one of your coldest hitters is a VERY POOR
> use of the sac bunt tactic and doesn't make the sac bunt in general a bad
> thing.

A properly timed use of a sac bunt to move a runner to 2nd is a pitcher on
the road in an interleague game.

> I'd have suggested something more like a hit and run in that situation.
And
> if
> successful, consider ... *consider* a squeeze bunt with Lugo.
>
>
> I agree that pinch running for a good hitter with a faster, but weaker
> hitter
> is a very iffy decision. It's why Francona hasn't PR for Manny or Ortiz
> hardly ever since becoming the manager. It might ... MIGHT be a
justifiable
> decision in certain circumstances, but I tend to think that the decision
> fails
> more often than it succeeds.

Pedroia isn't slow and he is a smart baserunner.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"gnork" <gnork44.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Cg8ki.5945$zA4.1985@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
> news:f6r318$30qp$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>
>> "gnork" <gnork44.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:D_7ki.5939$zA4.115@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > "Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>> > news:f6r1he$30db$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>> >>
>> >> "gnork" <gnork44.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:gy7ki.5931$zA4.174@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Gary" <golferace2.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> >> > news:j9d193pda5naq2h9qe628r40drd6afkkvq@4ax.com...
>> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:42:59 -0400, eric <eric.DeleteThis@local.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:28:40 -0400, Gary, during a pipe dream
>> >> >> >babbled:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:27:20 -0400, eric <eric.DeleteThis@local.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>Another good move: Bring in Papelbon in the 13th
>> >> >> >>>with the game tied. Sweet.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Who do you suggest?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Wake is warming in the bullpen. Does that indicate to you that
>> >> >> >> there
>> >> >> >> aren't any other relievers available to pitch?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >You would think that Snyder was also available.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Since he pitched in the two previous games and wasn't warming up, I
>> >> >> would believe he wasn't.
>> >> >
>> >> > Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
>> >> > something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been
>> >> > used
>> >> > in
>> >> > that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels
> beat
>> > the
>> >> > Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez
> for
>> >> > two.
>> >> > This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of
> trying
>> > to
>> >> > sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them.
>> > None
>> >> > led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the
>> > winning
>> >> > run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get
> a
>> >> > bunt
>> >> > down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit
>> >> > a
>> >> > sharp
>> >> > ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL)
>> >> > dove
>> >> > and
>> >> > made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing
> up.
>> > He
>> >> > picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy
>> >> > Howie
>> >> > Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were
>> > retired
>> >> > without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely
>> >> > would
>> > not
>> >> > have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was
>> > willing
>> >> > to
>> >> > pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year
>> > that
>> >> > Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2
>> > innings.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Gnork, it's pretty standard practice to NOT use your closer in an
>> >> extra
>> >> innings
>> >> road game until you've gained a lead and have a chance to win the game
> or
>> >> you've just about used up every one else in the bullpen.
>> >
>> > If true, standard=stupid. You want your best relief pitcher in the
>> > tightest
>> > spots. The Angels didn't do that and they won.
>>
>> No, Gnork == Stupid.
>
> Why do you say that in the context of this discussion in which we are
> mostly
> in agreement? Maybe we are both stupid?

Just taking the very rare (for me) opportunity to yank your chains.



>>
>>
>> >
>> > Also concerning the wretched sac bunt and at least yesterday, the
> equally
>> > wretched Terry Francona, remember what he did? First he takes out the
> .320
>> > hitting Pedroia to use the .190 hitting Lugo as a PR. That is so stupid
>> > and
>> > he was now done it 3 or 4 times. So when as usual they fail to score
> Lugo
>> > enters the game. Then in the top of the 12th off the immortal Zach
> Minor,
>> > Cora leads off with a single. Now Crisp is up. He has 2 hits in the
>> > game
>> > AND
>> > for about a month now, he has been hitting well over .300. So what does
>> > meester SfB do? He has Crisp sac bunt so Lugo can bat with the RISP at
> the
>> > cost of an out. Momentum goes away and the inning ends in scoreless
>> > futility.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I don't blame the sac bunt in the situation you describe. I blame a
> poorly
>> timed USE of the sac bunt. Sac bunting with one of your hottest hitters
>> to move someone to 2B for one of your coldest hitters is a VERY POOR
>> use of the sac bunt tactic and doesn't make the sac bunt in general a bad
>> thing.
>
> A properly timed use of a sac bunt to move a runner to 2nd is a pitcher on
> the road in an interleague game.


There are other times. Like a poor hitter (i.e. Lugo) who can bunt at the
bottom
of the lineup with a number of good hitters after him.




>
>> I'd have suggested something more like a hit and run in that situation.
> And
>> if
>> successful, consider ... *consider* a squeeze bunt with Lugo.
>>
>>
>> I agree that pinch running for a good hitter with a faster, but weaker
>> hitter
>> is a very iffy decision. It's why Francona hasn't PR for Manny or Ortiz
>> hardly ever since becoming the manager. It might ... MIGHT be a
> justifiable
>> decision in certain circumstances, but I tend to think that the decision
>> fails
>> more often than it succeeds.
>
> Pedroia isn't slow and he is a smart baserunner.

What world are you living in? Pedrioa may be a "smart" baserunner,
but not slow? Get real. He's slow as molasses, particularly for a
player of his stature.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:38:52 GMT, "gnork" <gnork44.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Only a complete A-hole would say (not think because that would imply
>something that didn't happen) that Papelbon should not have been used in
>that game. If anything he should have been in earlier. The Angels beat the
>Yankees in 13 because they used Shields for 3 innings and Rodriguez for two.
>This allowed them to overcome the typical Scioscia inaneness of trying to
>sac bunt so many times. He signaled for at least 4, maybe 5 of them. None
>led to a run whether sucessfully completed or failed. However the winning
>run scored in the 13th after Jo-Mo (Jose Molina) failed twice to get a bunt
>down and then was allowed to swing after falling behind 0-2. He hit a sharp
>ground ball headed towards RF. Yankee 1st sacker Miguel Cairo (LOL) dove and
>made an excellent stop. Then he dropped the ball as he was standing up. He
>picked it up and threw behind the pitcher covering 1st. The speedy Howie
>Kendrick easily scored all the way from 1st. Then the Angels were retired
>without another run. Had the bunt been "successful" they likely would not
>have scored. Scioscia is a fool for the bunt. But at least he was willing to
>pull out the stops to win this game. It was the first time this year that
>Shields went 3 innings. It was the 2nd time Rodriguez had gone 2 innings.
>

I don't know who you think said that Papelbon should not have been
used. Someone else posted, wrongly, that the Francona had no intention
of using him. I disagreed and obviously, he was used. As it turned
out, it didn't matter when he was used since he gave up the winning
run.

As you posted earlier, I believe. It wasn't the pitching that cost us
the game, it was the lack of scoring.

As for using relievers multiple innings, Francona did the same thing
with Timlin and Okijima. And, while I don't know for certain, Papelbon
might have gone two innings depending on how many pitches he threw in
the 13th. That's assuming, of course, that they went to the 14th.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:28:18 GMT, "gnork" <gnork44.DeleteThis@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Pedroia isn't slow and he is a smart baserunner.


He may be a smart baserunner, but he is slow.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

"Gary" <golferace2.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1tk2935l589j88vo2egklekqju80p8cbto@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:28:18 GMT, "gnork" <gnork44.DeleteThis@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Pedroia isn't slow and he is a smart baserunner.
>
>
> He may be a smart baserunner, but he is slow.

I think he is of average speed. I have no stopwatch timings and other data
to support it though. Do you have any?
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me 

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:07:56 GMT, "gnork" <gnork44.DeleteThis@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>
>"Gary" <golferace2.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:1tk2935l589j88vo2egklekqju80p8cbto@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:28:18 GMT, "gnork" <gnork44.DeleteThis@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Pedroia isn't slow and he is a smart baserunner.
>>
>>
>> He may be a smart baserunner, but he is slow.
>
>I think he is of average speed. I have no stopwatch timings and other data
>to support it though. Do you have any?
>

Just comments by the announcers.
 >> Stay informed about: This Bench Is a Mystery to Me