2009 roster predictions anyone

"snapp44" wrote in message

> Most Tiger fans were and as I recall some of the media even
> suggested that Willis was ancillary and we couldn't have
> Cabrera unless we also took Willis (off their hands). You
> or anyone without inside info can never say with certainty
> that "this deal is not why the Tigers are where they are"
> Ego, predjudises, etc involving salaries, contracts and
> many other things effect the sports psyche. I'm not
> saying it has or hasn't but something is causing so many
> players to under perform.
>
> Dave



....and, btw, I heard Dave Dombrowski himself, on a radio show, say that it
was the Tigers who wanted Willis included.





>
>
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone 

"snapp44" wrote in message

> In article , John Poutre says...
>>
>>"Bill Kawalec" wrote in message
>>
>>>
>>> "snapp44" wrote in message
>>>
>>>> In article , Bill Kawalec
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My oh my, how often do we hear it? We hear it here, we hear it on the
>>>>>phone-in shows. Why did Ordonez (or some other guy) swing at that
>>>>>pitch?
>>>>>Why
>>>>>did Ordonez (or some other guy) not swing at that pitch? Of course, it
>>>>>is
>>>>>most often said by people who have never played the game, on any level.
>>>>>And
>>>>>you'd swear it's the first time they've seen a baseball game, and don't
>>>>>get
>>>>>that, in this sport, if you fail 70% of the time, you're a star. A big
>>>>>star.
>>>>>Then there are those who live in the past. "This guy's not as good as
>>>>>Trammell, that guy's not as good as Parrish." Well, hell, neither of
>>>>>them
>>>>>was as good as Ted Williams. So bleeping what?!? This team
>>>>>underachieved.
>>>>>No
>>>>>one here, and no one in the Tigers' management really grasps why. All
>>>>>that
>>>>>can be done now is to look for the weakest spots, and try to adjust.
>>>>>AND,
>>>>>guess what!! What the weakest spots in '09 will be is not yet known, so
>>>>>they
>>>>>have to base those adjustments on what happened in '08!!!
>>>>>duh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You forgot the guy who gives blind alligence to an organization
>>>> whose current philosophy, management style and operational norms
>>>> only tweak the baseball sences, but never satisfy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> you seem to have this franchise confused with Toronto's. I haven't seen
>>> any of what you describe here this season. I do see people, who were
>>> excited about the trade when it was made, now trying to imply they
>>> ""knew"" it sucked.
>>> (btw, iirc, I was the only one here pointing to Willis' DOWNWARD TREND)
>>>
>>
>>
>>I was on record loving the deal and even was ok with the Willis part (BUT
>>I
>>didn't like them signing him, I liked giving him a chance to succeed,
>>which
>>he didn't). I still like the deal as it was (without the signing). This
>>deal is not why the Tigers are where they are and to be honest, Cabrera
>>can
>>be a cornerstone of their future.
>>
>>
> Most Tiger fans were and as I recall some of the media even
> suggested that Willis was ancillary and we couldn't have
> Cabrera unless we also took Willis (off their hands). You
> or anyone without inside info can never say with certainty
> that "this deal is not why the Tigers are where they are"
> Ego, predjudises, etc involving salaries, contracts and
> many other things effect the sports psyche. I'm not
> saying it has or hasn't but something is causing so many
> players to under perform.
>
>

That might be right, I have no idea. But it's silly to say that is why the
team underperformed. Let's ask Verlander what's wrong, I doubt he will
point to that trade. There is no single reason. I tend to wonder if they
should look at the pitching coach to be honest, and maybe the hitting coach.
Seems a change could not hurt them.
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone 

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:35:38 -0400, "John Poutre"
wrote:

>"snapp44" wrote in message
>
>> In article , John Poutre says...
>>>
>>>"Bill Kawalec" wrote in message
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "snapp44" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> In article , Bill Kawalec
>>>>> says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My oh my, how often do we hear it? We hear it here, we hear it on the
>>>>>>phone-in shows. Why did Ordonez (or some other guy) swing at that
>>>>>>pitch?
>>>>>>Why
>>>>>>did Ordonez (or some other guy) not swing at that pitch? Of course, it
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>most often said by people who have never played the game, on any level.
>>>>>>And
>>>>>>you'd swear it's the first time they've seen a baseball game, and don't
>>>>>>get
>>>>>>that, in this sport, if you fail 70% of the time, you're a star. A big
>>>>>>star.
>>>>>>Then there are those who live in the past. "This guy's not as good as
>>>>>>Trammell, that guy's not as good as Parrish." Well, hell, neither of
>>>>>>them
>>>>>>was as good as Ted Williams. So bleeping what?!? This team
>>>>>>underachieved.
>>>>>>No
>>>>>>one here, and no one in the Tigers' management really grasps why. All
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>can be done now is to look for the weakest spots, and try to adjust.
>>>>>>AND,
>>>>>>guess what!! What the weakest spots in '09 will be is not yet known, so
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>have to base those adjustments on what happened in '08!!!
>>>>>>duh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You forgot the guy who gives blind alligence to an organization
>>>>> whose current philosophy, management style and operational norms
>>>>> only tweak the baseball sences, but never satisfy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> you seem to have this franchise confused with Toronto's. I haven't seen
>>>> any of what you describe here this season. I do see people, who were
>>>> excited about the trade when it was made, now trying to imply they
>>>> ""knew"" it sucked.
>>>> (btw, iirc, I was the only one here pointing to Willis' DOWNWARD TREND)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I was on record loving the deal and even was ok with the Willis part (BUT
>>>I
>>>didn't like them signing him, I liked giving him a chance to succeed,
>>>which
>>>he didn't). I still like the deal as it was (without the signing). This
>>>deal is not why the Tigers are where they are and to be honest, Cabrera
>>>can
>>>be a cornerstone of their future.
>>>
>>>
>> Most Tiger fans were and as I recall some of the media even
>> suggested that Willis was ancillary and we couldn't have
>> Cabrera unless we also took Willis (off their hands). You
>> or anyone without inside info can never say with certainty
>> that "this deal is not why the Tigers are where they are"
>> Ego, predjudises, etc involving salaries, contracts and
>> many other things effect the sports psyche. I'm not
>> saying it has or hasn't but something is causing so many
>> players to under perform.
>>
>>
>
>That might be right, I have no idea. But it's silly to say that is why the
>team underperformed. Let's ask Verlander what's wrong, I doubt he will
>point to that trade. There is no single reason. I tend to wonder if they
>should look at the pitching coach to be honest, and maybe the hitting coach.
>Seems a change could not hurt them.
>

I totally agree that the pitching coach needs to be replaced. He
hasn't been able to get Roberton or Verlander out of their collective
funks. He's been little, if any, help getting Rodney to believe in
himself and his fastball. Can't blame him for Zumaya's continued
health issues or Bonderman's but before the Bonderman's injury, he had
little or no effect on Bonderman's performances.

As for the hitting coach, the Tiger hitters as a team need to learn
patience more than anything. The team is 3rd in home runs so you know
they can hit. So, if it were me, I'd keep Lloyd McClendon, dump Chuck
Hernandez and promote Jeff Jones to pitching coach and find a new
bullpen coach.

Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-

"I find television very educating. Every time somebody
turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book."
-- Groucho Marx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Remove nospam to email me.

Steve
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone 

In article , John Poutre says...
>
>"snapp44" wrote in message
>
>> In article , John Poutre says...
>>>
>>>"Bill Kawalec" wrote in message
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "snapp44" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> In article , Bill Kawalec
>>>>> says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My oh my, how often do we hear it? We hear it here, we hear it on the
>>>>>>phone-in shows. Why did Ordonez (or some other guy) swing at that
>>>>>>pitch?
>>>>>>Why
>>>>>>did Ordonez (or some other guy) not swing at that pitch? Of course, it
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>most often said by people who have never played the game, on any level.
>>>>>>And
>>>>>>you'd swear it's the first time they've seen a baseball game, and don't
>>>>>>get
>>>>>>that, in this sport, if you fail 70% of the time, you're a star. A big
>>>>>>star.
>>>>>>Then there are those who live in the past. "This guy's not as good as
>>>>>>Trammell, that guy's not as good as Parrish." Well, hell, neither of
>>>>>>them
>>>>>>was as good as Ted Williams. So bleeping what?!? This team
>>>>>>underachieved.
>>>>>>No
>>>>>>one here, and no one in the Tigers' management really grasps why. All
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>can be done now is to look for the weakest spots, and try to adjust.
>>>>>>AND,
>>>>>>guess what!! What the weakest spots in '09 will be is not yet known, so
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>have to base those adjustments on what happened in '08!!!
>>>>>>duh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You forgot the guy who gives blind alligence to an organization
>>>>> whose current philosophy, management style and operational norms
>>>>> only tweak the baseball sences, but never satisfy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> you seem to have this franchise confused with Toronto's. I haven't seen
>>>> any of what you describe here this season. I do see people, who were
>>>> excited about the trade when it was made, now trying to imply they
>>>> ""knew"" it sucked.
>>>> (btw, iirc, I was the only one here pointing to Willis' DOWNWARD TREND)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I was on record loving the deal and even was ok with the Willis part (BUT
>>>I
>>>didn't like them signing him, I liked giving him a chance to succeed,
>>>which
>>>he didn't). I still like the deal as it was (without the signing). This
>>>deal is not why the Tigers are where they are and to be honest, Cabrera
>>>can
>>>be a cornerstone of their future.
>>>
>>>
>> Most Tiger fans were and as I recall some of the media even
>> suggested that Willis was ancillary and we couldn't have
>> Cabrera unless we also took Willis (off their hands). You
>> or anyone without inside info can never say with certainty
>> that "this deal is not why the Tigers are where they are"
>> Ego, predjudises, etc involving salaries, contracts and
>> many other things effect the sports psyche. I'm not
>> saying it has or hasn't but something is causing so many
>> players to under perform.
>>
>>
>
>That might be right, I have no idea. But it's silly to say that is why the
>team underperformed. Let's ask Verlander what's wrong, I doubt he will
>point to that trade. There is no single reason. I tend to wonder if they
>should look at the pitching coach to be honest, and maybe the hitting coach.
>Seems a change could not hurt them.
>
>

Why is it silly? You, me and almost all fans are out of the
loop when it comes to knowing what goes on inside the locker
room, or the managers office. Most sports figures and that
includes Verlander are not going to discuss things that
happen inside their locker room. But we do know that
ballplayers are human beings. Human beings tend to bond
with others who look, talk and think like themselves. It's
the reason you're more likely to see Marcus Thames standing
next to and talking with Curtis Granderson than Carlos Gillen.
Human beings form cliques and there are probably a few in
the Tigers Clubhouse too. For example, and I'm not saying
this is true, suppose Guillen who was/is the Clubhouse
leader takes offence to Cabrera because he got his 1st base
job or for whatever, plus he doesn't like cabreras' personality.
Maybe he's aliitle jealous of Cabrera. When you have one clique
against another, petty jealosys or personalities clashing,
players can't concentrate or won't give 100% to the game.
What we are probably seeing this year is the result of some
of this in one form or another and degree or another.

Dave
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone 

"snapp44" wrote in message

> In article , John Poutre says...
>>
>>"snapp44" wrote in message
>>
>>> In article , John Poutre says...
>>>>
>>>>"Bill Kawalec" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "snapp44" wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article , Bill
>>>>>> Kawalec
>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My oh my, how often do we hear it? We hear it here, we hear it on the
>>>>>>>phone-in shows. Why did Ordonez (or some other guy) swing at that
>>>>>>>pitch?
>>>>>>>Why
>>>>>>>did Ordonez (or some other guy) not swing at that pitch? Of course,
>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>most often said by people who have never played the game, on any
>>>>>>>level.
>>>>>>>And
>>>>>>>you'd swear it's the first time they've seen a baseball game, and
>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>that, in this sport, if you fail 70% of the time, you're a star. A
>>>>>>>big
>>>>>>>star.
>>>>>>>Then there are those who live in the past. "This guy's not as good as
>>>>>>>Trammell, that guy's not as good as Parrish." Well, hell, neither of
>>>>>>>them
>>>>>>>was as good as Ted Williams. So bleeping what?!? This team
>>>>>>>underachieved.
>>>>>>>No
>>>>>>>one here, and no one in the Tigers' management really grasps why. All
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>can be done now is to look for the weakest spots, and try to adjust.
>>>>>>>AND,
>>>>>>>guess what!! What the weakest spots in '09 will be is not yet known,
>>>>>>>so
>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>have to base those adjustments on what happened in '08!!!
>>>>>>>duh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You forgot the guy who gives blind alligence to an organization
>>>>>> whose current philosophy, management style and operational norms
>>>>>> only tweak the baseball sences, but never satisfy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> you seem to have this franchise confused with Toronto's. I haven't
>>>>> seen
>>>>> any of what you describe here this season. I do see people, who were
>>>>> excited about the trade when it was made, now trying to imply they
>>>>> ""knew"" it sucked.
>>>>> (btw, iirc, I was the only one here pointing to Willis' DOWNWARD
>>>>> TREND)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I was on record loving the deal and even was ok with the Willis part
>>>>(BUT
>>>>I
>>>>didn't like them signing him, I liked giving him a chance to succeed,
>>>>which
>>>>he didn't). I still like the deal as it was (without the signing).
>>>>This
>>>>deal is not why the Tigers are where they are and to be honest, Cabrera
>>>>can
>>>>be a cornerstone of their future.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Most Tiger fans were and as I recall some of the media even
>>> suggested that Willis was ancillary and we couldn't have
>>> Cabrera unless we also took Willis (off their hands). You
>>> or anyone without inside info can never say with certainty
>>> that "this deal is not why the Tigers are where they are"
>>> Ego, predjudises, etc involving salaries, contracts and
>>> many other things effect the sports psyche. I'm not
>>> saying it has or hasn't but something is causing so many
>>> players to under perform.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>That might be right, I have no idea. But it's silly to say that is why
>>the
>>team underperformed. Let's ask Verlander what's wrong, I doubt he will
>>point to that trade. There is no single reason. I tend to wonder if they
>>should look at the pitching coach to be honest, and maybe the hitting
>>coach.
>>Seems a change could not hurt them.
>>
>>
>
> Why is it silly? You, me and almost all fans are out of the
> loop when it comes to knowing what goes on inside the locker
> room, or the managers office. Most sports figures and that
> includes Verlander are not going to discuss things that
> happen inside their locker room. But we do know that
> ballplayers are human beings. Human beings tend to bond
> with others who look, talk and think like themselves. It's
> the reason you're more likely to see Marcus Thames standing
> next to and talking with Curtis Granderson than Carlos Gillen.
> Human beings form cliques and there are probably a few in
> the Tigers Clubhouse too. For example, and I'm not saying
> this is true, suppose Guillen who was/is the Clubhouse
> leader takes offence to Cabrera because he got his 1st base
> job or for whatever, plus he doesn't like cabreras' personality.
> Maybe he's aliitle jealous of Cabrera. When you have one clique
> against another, petty jealosys or personalities clashing,
> players can't concentrate or won't give 100% to the game.
> What we are probably seeing this year is the result of some
> of this in one form or another and degree or another.
>
>

Seems silly for you to be saying the word "probably" when you have no idea
and then come up with a guess. With no signs at all pointing that way, I
hardly think that trade is what turned them downward.
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone 

In article , John Poutre says...
>
>"snapp44" wrote in message
>
>> In article , John Poutre says...
>>>
>>>"snapp44" wrote in message
>>>
>>>> In article , John Poutre says...
>>>>>
>>>>>"Bill Kawalec" wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "snapp44" wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article , Bill
>>>>>>> Kawalec
>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>My oh my, how often do we hear it? We hear it here, we hear it on the
>>>>>>>>phone-in shows. Why did Ordonez (or some other guy) swing at that
>>>>>>>>pitch?
>>>>>>>>Why
>>>>>>>>did Ordonez (or some other guy) not swing at that pitch? Of course,
>>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>most often said by people who have never played the game, on any
>>>>>>>>level.
>>>>>>>>And
>>>>>>>>you'd swear it's the first time they've seen a baseball game, and
>>>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>that, in this sport, if you fail 70% of the time, you're a star. A
>>>>>>>>big
>>>>>>>>star.
>>>>>>>>Then there are those who live in the past. "This guy's not as good as
>>>>>>>>Trammell, that guy's not as good as Parrish." Well, hell, neither of
>>>>>>>>them
>>>>>>>>was as good as Ted Williams. So bleeping what?!? This team
>>>>>>>>underachieved.
>>>>>>>>No
>>>>>>>>one here, and no one in the Tigers' management really grasps why. All
>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>can be done now is to look for the weakest spots, and try to adjust.
>>>>>>>>AND,
>>>>>>>>guess what!! What the weakest spots in '09 will be is not yet known,
>>>>>>>>so
>>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>have to base those adjustments on what happened in '08!!!
>>>>>>>>duh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You forgot the guy who gives blind alligence to an organization
>>>>>>> whose current philosophy, management style and operational norms
>>>>>>> only tweak the baseball sences, but never satisfy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you seem to have this franchise confused with Toronto's. I haven't
>>>>>> seen
>>>>>> any of what you describe here this season. I do see people, who were
>>>>>> excited about the trade when it was made, now trying to imply they
>>>>>> ""knew"" it sucked.
>>>>>> (btw, iirc, I was the only one here pointing to Willis' DOWNWARD
>>>>>> TREND)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I was on record loving the deal and even was ok with the Willis part
>>>>>(BUT
>>>>>I
>>>>>didn't like them signing him, I liked giving him a chance to succeed,
>>>>>which
>>>>>he didn't). I still like the deal as it was (without the signing).
>>>>>This
>>>>>deal is not why the Tigers are where they are and to be honest, Cabrera
>>>>>can
>>>>>be a cornerstone of their future.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Most Tiger fans were and as I recall some of the media even
>>>> suggested that Willis was ancillary and we couldn't have
>>>> Cabrera unless we also took Willis (off their hands). You
>>>> or anyone without inside info can never say with certainty
>>>> that "this deal is not why the Tigers are where they are"
>>>> Ego, predjudises, etc involving salaries, contracts and
>>>> many other things effect the sports psyche. I'm not
>>>> saying it has or hasn't but something is causing so many
>>>> players to under perform.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>That might be right, I have no idea. But it's silly to say that is why
>>>the
>>>team underperformed. Let's ask Verlander what's wrong, I doubt he will
>>>point to that trade. There is no single reason. I tend to wonder if they
>>>should look at the pitching coach to be honest, and maybe the hitting
>>>coach.
>>>Seems a change could not hurt them.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Why is it silly? You, me and almost all fans are out of the
>> loop when it comes to knowing what goes on inside the locker
>> room, or the managers office. Most sports figures and that
>> includes Verlander are not going to discuss things that
>> happen inside their locker room. But we do know that
>> ballplayers are human beings. Human beings tend to bond
>> with others who look, talk and think like themselves. It's
>> the reason you're more likely to see Marcus Thames standing
>> next to and talking with Curtis Granderson than Carlos Gillen.
>> Human beings form cliques and there are probably a few in
>> the Tigers Clubhouse too. For example, and I'm not saying
>> this is true, suppose Guillen who was/is the Clubhouse
>> leader takes offence to Cabrera because he got his 1st base
>> job or for whatever, plus he doesn't like cabreras' personality.
>> Maybe he's aliitle jealous of Cabrera. When you have one clique
>> against another, petty jealosys or personalities clashing,
>> players can't concentrate or won't give 100% to the game.
>> What we are probably seeing this year is the result of some
>> of this in one form or another and degree or another.
>>
>>
>
>Seems silly for you to be saying the word "probably" when you have no idea
>and then come up with a guess. With no signs at all pointing that way, I
>hardly think that trade is what turned them downward.
>
>

There isn't any reason a ballclub can't have its' own soap operas
going on. You or I work 8 hrs and go home every night. Players
work, eat and live with each other on a constant basis. I only
attempted to show what MAY happen and give some EXAMPLES. IT was
not a GUESS. It was an EXAMPLE. It may have been THAT TRADE. It
may have been ANOTHER TRADE. It may not have been ANY TRADE. It
MAY be between the players and the manager or coaches? If you
can't understand the aspects of interpersonal relationships and
how it relates to team sports or refuse to give it any merit then
you are just plain nieve.

Dave
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone 

"snapp44" wrote in message

>
> There isn't any reason a ballclub can't have its' own soap operas
> going on. You or I work 8 hrs and go home every night. Players
> work, eat and live with each other on a constant basis. I only
> attempted to show what MAY happen and give some EXAMPLES. IT was
> not a GUESS. It was an EXAMPLE. It may have been THAT TRADE. It
> may have been ANOTHER TRADE. It may not have been ANY TRADE. It
> MAY be between the players and the manager or coaches?



so, as I suspected, it's all just hot air.







If you
> can't understand the aspects of interpersonal relationships and
> how it relates to team sports or refuse to give it any merit then
> you are just plain nieve.
>
> Dave
>
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone 

"snapp44" wrote in message

> In article , John Poutre says...

> There isn't any reason a ballclub can't have its' own soap operas
> going on. You or I work 8 hrs and go home every night. Players
> work, eat and live with each other on a constant basis. I only
> attempted to show what MAY happen and give some EXAMPLES. IT was
> not a GUESS. It was an EXAMPLE. It may have been THAT TRADE. It
> may have been ANOTHER TRADE. It may not have been ANY TRADE. It
> MAY be between the players and the manager or coaches? If you
> can't understand the aspects of interpersonal relationships and
> how it relates to team sports or refuse to give it any merit then
> you are just plain nieve.
>

LOL, you are just grasping at staws. It could be 30 different things but
you are hanging your hat on 1 trade. Sure, it could be that. Just as
equally, it could be global warming that is causing the Tigers to tank. I
am sure you could make that case to with all your WHAT IF, PROBABLYS,
MAYBES.
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 roster predictions anyone